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<font color="#ffff00">Provided by explosiveskull</font>
https://twitter.com/kaboomskull

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♪ When I
survey the wondrous cross ♪

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You need to understand

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that the message of the
cross is foolishness

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to those who are
perishing.

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Given that that is the case

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there is an immediate temptation

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on the part of the proclaimer
of the good news

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to try then to diminish,
if not remove

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the difficult parts.

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In a sense, you're creating a
Christian message

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that's warm, kind, and popular

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for contemporary culture,

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but it's frankly, according
to this critic,

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"unbiblical and historically
unreliable..."

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That's true isn't it?

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♪ And pour contempt on
all my pride. ♪

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I'm concerned
that people today

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don't know who God is.

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Sometimes when I hear people
speak about God

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I feel like an atheist.

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The God they speak of-
I just don't believe in!

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People say like,
"When did you lose your faith?"

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It started fifteen minutes after
I accepted Jesus Christ as my

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personal Lord and Savior!

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Immediately encountered stuff
in scripture and was like,

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"That makes no sense to me!"

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When we say
"Christ died for our sins"

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do we mean that God required
the murder of His son

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in order to forgive?
No!

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That maligns the
character of God!

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It is frightening to me

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that the doctrine most loved by
believers through church history

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- the only doctrine that gives me
complete and solid hope-

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so many modern writers
today hate!

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I had this one
experience where

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I was in a sanctuary of
a big Lutheran church

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speaking to their hundreds of
confirmation students

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and all of the parents
in the room,

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and I said, "Raise your hand
if you've ever been told,

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"'Jesus died for your sins.'"

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And of course everybody
raised their hands.

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And so then I said,
"Alright, I want all the parents

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to explain to their
confirmation student,

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'How does that work exactly?'
Like by what

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cosmic mechanism does the
death of Jesus

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take care of your
personal sins?"

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And I could hear the groan-
like there was a groan

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that went across this
full sanctuary

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of hundreds of people. Because
all these adults were like,

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"I don't know how it works!
I just know its true!"

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♪ Love so amazing,
so divine ♪

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♪ Demands my soul,
my life, my all. ♪

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Progressive
Christianity actually changed

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my life in a radical way.

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I grew up in the church-

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grew up in a family that

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really had a genuine
love for Jesus,

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genuine love for the Bible.

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And it wasn't by
any measure perfect.

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My family is not perfect, and
the churches I grew up in

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were not perfect.

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But I didn't really
go through any doubt

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as a young child or even as an
adult I never experienced doubts

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about the existence of God,

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about the truthfulness
of Christianity,

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about the reliability
of the Bible.

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I just believed those things.

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And spent some time in the
Christian music business

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in a group called ZOEgirl.

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We toured the country and even
certain parts of the world,

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singing about Jesus to young
girls and to young people.

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And that was something that was
very real for me.

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Every Christian
I know sort of

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is on some kind of a journey.

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I grew up among Christians-my
dad is Tony Campolo,

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a famous Christian.

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And I thought my dad
was wonderful,

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and I didn't become a Christian
until I was fifteen years old.

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And it wasn't because like,
I hated my father,

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or I was a rebellious kid.

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It was just that I didn't really
believe in God.

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So neither my
wife nor myself

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were raised in Christian homes.

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I was raised by a nominally
Christian mother,

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and an atheist father.

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And from a very early age
decided that I

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was an atheist as well.

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When I first became a Christian
I was crushed

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under the conviction of sin.

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And my selfishness was hurting
my marriage, hurting my family.

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And God opened my eyes to that
in a very...

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in a very painful way.

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I mean I was
a nice kid-

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I wanted to make the world
a better place,

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and the church seemed to me
to be a vehicle to do that-

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seemed to me like-

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it felt like the only
game in town!

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Like if you want to make the
world a better place-

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this is the way you do it.

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And so they kind of had me
at "Hello."

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I walked in, I was like,
"I love this community!"

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I was so attracted to it.

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And what attracted me more than
anything to the Christian faith

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was the truth of God's word.

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It was the first time
I'd ever read His word.

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And I had no church community,
I had no friends.

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I didn't have a positive
support group-

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I had a Bible that
I read in the dark

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every night while I put
my son to sleep.

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I still didn't believe in God,

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but I wanted to be part of the
community so bad that I sort of

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went along.

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You know in Alcoholics Anonymous
they say you've got to

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"fake it until you make it."

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And so like, I faked it!

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All that supernatural stuff-

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that wasn't the attraction to
Christianity for me-

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that was the price of admission.

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I was reading
words that had a divine

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character and nature that was
unmistakable to me

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all of a sudden.

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The Spirit of God had lifted the
veil from my eyes

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and I was seeing the words of
God on paper.

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But at some point
I'm up there on a youth retreat.

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And there's three hundred kids,
and there's candlelight,

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and we're swaying to the music
and singing, "I love you Lord!"

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You know? And I had...

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...a transcendent experience.

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And I had one of those moments
in which I felt something!

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Felt God speaking to me!

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And that was it! Like,
I was like, "This is real!"

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And then I was in.

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What happened
there was a dramatic

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change of worldview.
I went from

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an atheist who held my reason,
and my intellect,

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and my senses-all of my
faculties as the

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ultimate standard of reality.

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Now all of a sudden I have
the word of God

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telling me

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from God, things about reality

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that were different than I
believed before.

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You know it's funny like I'm
totally secular now! So like-

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you know I don't believe in any
form of supernaturalism so-

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like I would have a different
explanation for that experience.

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But when I'm with secular people
and they're like,

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"I bet you're embarrassed
that you-

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that you say you felt the
Holy Spirit, or that you heard

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God speaking to you." I'm like,
"Oh no!"

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"That happened!"

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Like I felt something, I heard
a voice! You know?

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People don't believe in
transcendent experiences

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I always say like,
"Haven't used the right drugs!"

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"Haven't fallen in love with
the right partner."

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"Haven't been to the right
rock concert."

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Because like we've all had
these experiences where

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we've felt swept up in something
bigger than ourselves.

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And I think whatever narrative
you're in when that happens,

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it confirms that narrative.

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And so for me I was in a
Christian context-

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I was like, "This is Jesus!"

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Even though my
heart was with Jesus,

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I wasn't really churched
during that time.

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I didn't have a pastor during
that time. And I think that

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made me vulnerable to
some things. And-

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you know, travelling in the
Christian music business

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you go to all kinds of
different churches.

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You go to the big megachurches
with the celebrity pastors.

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You go to the small little
churches that

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just have a piano and
not much else. And-

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you see it all!

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And I think I began to become
a little bit jaded

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I just went, "This can't be the
real thing."

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Like, "This can't be right."

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The Emerging
Church movement began

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several years ago as a
conversation

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among Evangelical Gen-X leaders

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who were alarmed at church dropout
rates among twenties, and thirties.

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About the same time, a pastor
from Maryland, Brian McLaren,

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began writing about what he saw
as a growing disillusionment

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with the way evangelical
Christianity

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was being practiced.

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The two paths that
came together

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to form the Emerging Church
Movement in the late 1990's

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were one, was a group of people
who were questioning the methods

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of church as big business...

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And I wonder about these multi-
millionaire preachers who are

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fleecing their congregations,

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and they watch their own people
in dire poverty!

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They have this world's goods and
they're not

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sharing what they have with
those who are in need

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in their own communities-
it scares me!

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The Emerging
Church movement

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actually was right in a lot of
their criticisms

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of shallow evangelicalism.
Pragmatic evangelicalism. The-

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entire millennial
generation had-

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for the most part-those that
had grown up as evangelicals-

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had grown up in children's
church and then youth group

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movements where pretty much the
emphasis was on fun and games-

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not teaching. And so it's a
generation of people

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who were not taught scripture,

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and so they were pretty quick
to throw it out!

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There's a sort of a comfort
in knowing that, one,

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I don't have to have the answers

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and that there aren't
necessarily answers.

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Then you had another stream
that was

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people who were questioning
the theology,

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the doctrine,

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the core message of
the gospel, like,

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"What's the gospel
really about?"

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And we were reading

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people who had been considered
"off limits"

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by a lot of evangelicals.

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We were reading like
feminist theology,

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and liberation theology,
and things like that.

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But the idea was,
"Look, times are changing

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we're moving out of
the modern realm,

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and into the postmodern realm."

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And the distinctive feature of
postmodernism was always

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skepticism.

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The modernist thought,

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"We can know for sure
what truth is because

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science will tell us."

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And postmodernism has given up
on that fallacy.

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And now concluded that really,
"Nothing can tell us for sure-

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what truth is."

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We talked a lot about the Bible.

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How reliable and trustworthy
is the Bible?

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And how reliable and
trustworthy are our

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interpretations and applications
of the Bible?

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So we can't be absolutely
confident

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that we know anything.

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And therefore postmodernism is
really the abandonment of

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certainty, and knowledge.

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In fact, if there's one sin
in the progressive church,

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it's the "sin of certainty."

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Beware of people who charge in
with certainty and Bible verses.

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And by the time
ZOEgirl came to an end

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my husband and I had found a
local non-denominational,

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just run-of-the-mill evangelical
church here in the heart of

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middle Tennessee where I live.

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And we went to this church for
about eight months and

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after about eight months
the pastor invited me

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to be a part of a bit of a
deeper study group.

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An inner-circle kind of
discussion group

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where we would be studying the
Bible, we'd be studying

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Christianity, theology.

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And so the class unfolded,

249
00:11:33,158 --> 00:11:36,394
and then he revealed that
although he didn't say this on

250
00:11:36,427 --> 00:11:38,096
Sunday mornings-

251
00:11:38,129 --> 00:11:40,966
he was actually more
of an agnostic!

252
00:11:40,999 --> 00:11:43,936
And he called himself a
"hopeful agnostic."

253
00:11:43,969 --> 00:11:47,406
And he would bring up
claim after claim

254
00:11:47,438 --> 00:11:49,274
against the Bible.

255
00:11:49,307 --> 00:11:52,144
A lot of it had to do with the
reliability of the Bible,

256
00:11:52,177 --> 00:11:56,248
core doctrines that Christians
have believed for 2000 years.

257
00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,983
And I wasn't prepared to answer-
I'd never even heard

258
00:11:59,017 --> 00:12:02,087
of some of the questions, let
alone have thought through

259
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,922
some of the answers.

260
00:12:03,955 --> 00:12:07,126
I look back now and I realize
that what was happening

261
00:12:07,158 --> 00:12:09,761
was his deconstruction.

262
00:12:09,794 --> 00:12:12,063
When I think
about what our podcast is,

263
00:12:12,096 --> 00:12:13,999
and even the word
"decontruction,"

264
00:12:14,032 --> 00:12:16,902
it's really to me as simple as
just encouraging people

265
00:12:16,934 --> 00:12:20,872
to take part-to participate in
their own spiritual journey.

266
00:12:20,905 --> 00:12:24,308
It's-I think taking a more
mature look at your faith,

267
00:12:24,341 --> 00:12:26,879
taking ownership
over your faith.

268
00:12:26,912 --> 00:12:29,181
Really digging into it to
determine what it is

269
00:12:29,214 --> 00:12:30,883
that I believe.

270
00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:33,451
And a lot of times what
that means is kind of

271
00:12:33,485 --> 00:12:36,955
removing some of the things that
you grew up believing,

272
00:12:36,988 --> 00:12:40,159
but certainly by no means
getting rid of everything.

273
00:12:40,192 --> 00:12:42,927
Often, when
a Christian goes through a

274
00:12:42,961 --> 00:12:45,364
process of deconstruction,

275
00:12:45,397 --> 00:12:48,500
what they reconstruct to
is something that

276
00:12:48,533 --> 00:12:52,236
doesn't look anything like
historic Christianity.

277
00:12:52,269 --> 00:12:56,207
In my case, I went through that
process of deconstructing.

278
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,178
I didn't go quite to atheism.
I always did believe

279
00:13:00,211 --> 00:13:01,547
that God was there.

280
00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:04,483
But it sent me into
a crisis of faith,

281
00:13:04,515 --> 00:13:07,318
a really dark time
of doubt where

282
00:13:07,351 --> 00:13:11,088
I would rock my baby in the
rocking chair,

283
00:13:11,121 --> 00:13:15,193
and just sing hymns into
the darkness, just-

284
00:13:15,226 --> 00:13:18,863
not even really sure
that they were true.

285
00:13:18,897 --> 00:13:21,934
It was as if I had been thrown
into the middle of the ocean

286
00:13:21,966 --> 00:13:24,937
with just these
high crazy waves,

287
00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:27,372
with nothing-nothing
to grab on to.

288
00:13:27,404 --> 00:13:29,173
And I said, "God,
send me a lifeboat!

289
00:13:29,206 --> 00:13:32,977
If Christianity is true,
send me a lifeboat!"

290
00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:35,913
Because so many
Emergents wanted to be

291
00:13:35,947 --> 00:13:37,850
politically correct,

292
00:13:37,883 --> 00:13:40,886
even the moral foundations of
Christianity were beginning to

293
00:13:40,918 --> 00:13:43,087
sort of crumble
underneath them,

294
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,091
because they wanted to
follow the spirit of the age

295
00:13:46,124 --> 00:13:49,194
in being tolerant and diverse.

296
00:13:49,226 --> 00:13:53,298
So you can't say,
"Homosexuality is a sin."

297
00:13:53,331 --> 00:13:56,368
So as a young Christian reading
my Bible for the first time,

298
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,269
I ran into things like

299
00:13:58,302 --> 00:14:01,472
the way God's word
talks about sexual sin.

300
00:14:01,505 --> 00:14:04,576
I had homosexual friends in
high school and I-

301
00:14:04,609 --> 00:14:08,213
I'd look at God's word telling
me that this is a sin,

302
00:14:08,245 --> 00:14:10,048
and tried hard!

303
00:14:10,081 --> 00:14:12,084
Because I love these people,
I care about these people!

304
00:14:12,116 --> 00:14:15,052
I don't want to see their
lifestyle as something that is

305
00:14:15,086 --> 00:14:18,156
sinful and needs to be
repented of.

306
00:14:18,188 --> 00:14:22,026
And also, on top of that, it's
really culturally unpopular

307
00:14:22,059 --> 00:14:24,262
and frowned upon
to think that way.

308
00:14:24,296 --> 00:14:27,566
There's been a lot of
progress -so to speak-

309
00:14:27,599 --> 00:14:30,602
for that community
in the last decade.

310
00:14:30,634 --> 00:14:34,206
We now see politicians have
evolved on their stance on

311
00:14:34,239 --> 00:14:35,941
same sex marriage.

312
00:14:35,974 --> 00:14:37,209
I have to tell you, as I've said
I've been going through

313
00:14:37,241 --> 00:14:39,144
an evolution on this issue.

314
00:14:39,177 --> 00:14:43,481
I believe that marriage is the
union between a man and a woman.

315
00:14:43,514 --> 00:14:45,549
Now for me as a Christian...

316
00:14:45,582 --> 00:14:48,120
I had gay roommates
when I was in college.

317
00:14:48,153 --> 00:14:49,687
And they had been-

318
00:14:49,721 --> 00:14:52,990
this was 1985! It was not okay
to be gay in any part of

319
00:14:53,024 --> 00:14:55,159
Christian America. Certainly not
the conservative church

320
00:14:55,192 --> 00:14:57,095
I was growing up in.

321
00:14:57,128 --> 00:14:59,965
When I came out in
favor of marriage equality,

322
00:14:59,998 --> 00:15:03,502
I lost work, I lost
publishing contracts...

323
00:15:03,969 --> 00:15:06,605
But these guys-
they were wonderful!

324
00:15:06,638 --> 00:15:09,675
And they had been gay from
the moment that they were

325
00:15:09,707 --> 00:15:11,576
aware of themselves sexually.

326
00:15:11,609 --> 00:15:15,514
I'm straight, but I even know
like, being gay is not a choice!

327
00:15:15,547 --> 00:15:17,382
It's our lifestyle,
it's who we are!

328
00:15:17,414 --> 00:15:21,019
It's not something that we
choose to do, like lying is

329
00:15:21,052 --> 00:15:22,955
or something like that.
Like this is how we are born,

330
00:15:22,988 --> 00:15:23,956
how we feel.

331
00:15:25,623 --> 00:15:27,392
Through the sins of Adam, sin
had come into the world...

332
00:15:27,424 --> 00:15:29,360
This guy doesn't even
know what a dinosaur is!

333
00:15:29,394 --> 00:15:31,096
We are all
born in sin!

334
00:15:31,129 --> 00:15:32,730
We are born with
a sin nature.

335
00:15:32,764 --> 00:15:37,168
All men were born into sin.
All men have a sin nature.

336
00:15:37,201 --> 00:15:41,373
We're all rebelling against the
will of God apart from Christ.

337
00:15:41,405 --> 00:15:45,743
And I don't think that it's
fair to tell us that how-

338
00:15:45,777 --> 00:15:49,047
how we feel everyday, and
how our natural feelings come

339
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,049
is wrong. That's just...

340
00:15:51,081 --> 00:15:52,650
Even if
they honestly believe they

341
00:15:52,683 --> 00:15:54,218
were born that way,

342
00:15:54,251 --> 00:15:57,088
Jesus says,
"You must be born again."

343
00:15:57,121 --> 00:15:59,256
It took me a long time to be
open about that but like

344
00:15:59,289 --> 00:16:02,059
very early on I realized
like, look-

345
00:16:02,092 --> 00:16:04,195
the Bible's wrong
about this one!

346
00:16:04,229 --> 00:16:08,033
It is important for me to go
ahead and affirm

347
00:16:08,066 --> 00:16:12,137
that I think same-sex couples
should be able to get married.

348
00:16:12,169 --> 00:16:16,607
And when I
look at the evolution of how

349
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,342
not only our nation,

350
00:16:18,375 --> 00:16:21,579
but how professing Christians
view this issue,

351
00:16:21,613 --> 00:16:25,484
you can definitely see how
this particular sin

352
00:16:25,517 --> 00:16:29,321
has become somewhat of a
"line in the sand."

353
00:16:29,354 --> 00:16:31,056
And what I was
faced with was the decision-

354
00:16:31,089 --> 00:16:34,559
am I going to trust what God
says about this sin?

355
00:16:34,591 --> 00:16:37,495
Or am I just going to go with
what the world and my feelings

356
00:16:37,528 --> 00:16:39,431
say about this sin?

357
00:16:39,464 --> 00:16:42,100
There's a time where you have
to look in the mirror and say,

358
00:16:42,133 --> 00:16:44,735
"I have to go where
my heart's leading me."

359
00:16:44,769 --> 00:16:49,240
I just knew too many
wonderful Christian people

360
00:16:49,274 --> 00:16:51,076
who were in gay relationships.

361
00:16:51,109 --> 00:16:54,780
My dad has since come out
in support of gay marriage,

362
00:16:54,812 --> 00:16:58,716
but for many years was not, and
was like, "You've gone too far!"

363
00:16:58,750 --> 00:17:01,385
Because I'm marrying
gay couples! You know?

364
00:17:01,418 --> 00:17:04,355
And having been an atheist
for years, I knew

365
00:17:04,388 --> 00:17:06,657
what following my feelings
would get me.

366
00:17:06,691 --> 00:17:08,460
And I was done with that.

367
00:17:08,492 --> 00:17:11,328
To say that
homosexuality is a sin

368
00:17:11,362 --> 00:17:14,199
is practically social suicide!

369
00:17:14,231 --> 00:17:17,802
Yesterday
CrossFitHQ fired Russell Berger

370
00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:22,274
for basically saying
homosexuality is a sin.

371
00:17:22,307 --> 00:17:25,644
And I was
watching a lot of my friends

372
00:17:25,676 --> 00:17:28,679
reject the Christianity
they grew up with.

373
00:17:28,712 --> 00:17:31,415
And so I started to think,
"Well I'm not going to reject

374
00:17:31,449 --> 00:17:33,317
just what I was raised with.

375
00:17:33,351 --> 00:17:35,220
'Cause maybe what I was raised
with wasn't the real thing.

376
00:17:35,252 --> 00:17:37,155
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

377
00:17:37,355 --> 00:17:40,826
But I need to find out what
historic Christianity is.

378
00:17:40,858 --> 00:17:44,328
And if I'm going to reject
Christianity, it's going to be

379
00:17:44,362 --> 00:17:47,865
that I'm rejecting authentic,
real, historic Christianity,

380
00:17:47,898 --> 00:17:50,835
and not just something
I was raised with."

381
00:17:50,868 --> 00:17:52,703
And you had a lot
of people at the time

382
00:17:52,737 --> 00:17:54,473
arguing against us saying,

383
00:17:54,506 --> 00:17:57,709
"The methods change, the
message never changes." Like-

384
00:17:57,741 --> 00:18:01,613
as though the gospel has never
changed. Which is again,

385
00:18:01,645 --> 00:18:05,282
like theologically, and
historically unjustifiable.

386
00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:07,786
The message of the
church has evolved.

387
00:18:07,818 --> 00:18:10,555
So there are some
that would try to pit

388
00:18:10,587 --> 00:18:14,725
the gospel of Jesus against the
gospel of Paul as if they were

389
00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:18,163
somehow saying different things,
or making different messages.

390
00:18:18,195 --> 00:18:21,165
I think the book
of Romans is the wrong place

391
00:18:21,199 --> 00:18:23,435
to go to get a definition of
the gospel. I think-

392
00:18:23,468 --> 00:18:26,605
we have to get a definition of
the gospel from Jesus!

393
00:18:26,637 --> 00:18:28,439
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

394
00:18:28,472 --> 00:18:30,274
That's where He's
defining the gospel.

395
00:18:30,307 --> 00:18:32,778
But we have to see what the book
of Romans is really about.

396
00:18:33,243 --> 00:18:36,480
It's a bad question,
that is not answerable!

397
00:18:36,513 --> 00:18:38,616
You cannot answer,
"What is the gospel?"

398
00:18:38,650 --> 00:18:40,384
"Jesus died on the cross
for my sin!"

399
00:18:40,417 --> 00:18:41,886
That's not the gospel!

400
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,421
Jesus was preaching the gospel

401
00:18:43,453 --> 00:18:46,125
before He died on
the cross for sin!

402
00:18:46,457 --> 00:18:48,727
So like, Mark Chapter 1...

403
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,663
Jesus starts preaching
the gospel.

404
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:54,533
What was He preaching?
He hadn't died yet!

405
00:18:54,566 --> 00:18:56,535
Nobody had unpacked any of it!

406
00:18:56,567 --> 00:18:58,903
So it must be more than His
death on the cross

407
00:18:58,936 --> 00:19:01,338
or we wouldn't even have
the gospels!

408
00:19:01,372 --> 00:19:04,509
We would just have,
"Jesus died! Here's some Paul!"

409
00:19:04,541 --> 00:19:07,478
So if He went out and started
preaching the gospel,

410
00:19:07,511 --> 00:19:10,815
I know that no matter what-
whatever He was preaching

411
00:19:10,847 --> 00:19:14,618
is different than what I've been
told the gospel is!

412
00:19:14,652 --> 00:19:15,953
Yeah! Yeah!

413
00:19:15,987 --> 00:19:17,889
As a boy growing up

414
00:19:17,922 --> 00:19:21,393
it was explained to me that the
Bible is a book about Jesus.

415
00:19:21,425 --> 00:19:25,663
Jesus is Himself "the gospel."
The good news.

416
00:19:25,696 --> 00:19:29,667
He is the Lamb of God who takes
away the sin of the world

417
00:19:29,701 --> 00:19:32,237
as John the Baptist
points to Him.

418
00:19:32,269 --> 00:19:36,407
So, in the Old Testament
He is predicted,

419
00:19:36,441 --> 00:19:41,413
in the Gospels He's revealed,

420
00:19:41,445 --> 00:19:44,548
in the Acts He's preached,

421
00:19:44,582 --> 00:19:47,319
in the Epistles He's explained,

422
00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:50,755
and in the book of Revelation
He's expected!

423
00:19:50,788 --> 00:19:54,459
The center of the message of
both Jesus and Paul

424
00:19:54,491 --> 00:19:57,261
was Christ Himself,
Christ-His work,

425
00:19:57,295 --> 00:20:00,731
and the response that says,
I will submit, I will follow

426
00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:02,634
after Christ.

427
00:20:02,666 --> 00:20:05,869
I do not sum up the gospel!
I'm not going to do it!

428
00:20:05,903 --> 00:20:08,807
You're not going to
bait me into it!

429
00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:10,875
Tony's right!

430
00:20:10,907 --> 00:20:12,376
Yeah! Yeah!

431
00:20:12,410 --> 00:20:13,445
I can't answer that!

432
00:20:13,478 --> 00:20:14,946
Yeah!

433
00:20:14,979 --> 00:20:17,015
The good news is the
kingdom of God is at hand!

434
00:20:17,048 --> 00:20:19,584
It's available. We can reach
out and touch it!

435
00:20:19,616 --> 00:20:20,918
Of course, that
raises the question

436
00:20:20,951 --> 00:20:22,586
what does the
"kingdom of God" mean?

437
00:20:22,619 --> 00:20:26,023
Jesus
preached the kingdom

438
00:20:26,057 --> 00:20:28,393
as the forgiveness of sins.

439
00:20:28,425 --> 00:20:31,428
Jesus bypassed the temple

440
00:20:31,461 --> 00:20:33,265
and its sacrifices

441
00:20:33,298 --> 00:20:36,601
by offering in His own person
the forgiveness of sins.

442
00:20:36,634 --> 00:20:39,703
Let His enemies tell us
who He was.

443
00:20:39,737 --> 00:20:43,008
The Pharisee says, "Who does
He think He is-this man,

444
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,844
who imagines that He has the
power to forgive sins?

445
00:20:45,876 --> 00:20:47,945
Only God has the power
to forgive sins!

446
00:20:47,979 --> 00:20:49,713
What a blasphemer!"

447
00:20:49,747 --> 00:20:53,752
Paul stated plainly what the
gospel was in 1 Cor. 15

448
00:20:53,785 --> 00:20:56,021
when he said,
"Christ died for our sins

449
00:20:56,054 --> 00:20:57,689
according to the scriptures,

450
00:20:57,721 --> 00:21:01,292
He was buried, and He was
raised on the third day."

451
00:21:01,326 --> 00:21:03,461
But Jesus
came preaching a gospel

452
00:21:03,493 --> 00:21:05,496
that said,
"the kingdom is here!"

453
00:21:05,529 --> 00:21:06,931
"And I'm the king!"

454
00:21:06,963 --> 00:21:09,600
And wherever my reign and my
influence is-

455
00:21:09,634 --> 00:21:11,336
there's the kingdom!

456
00:21:11,368 --> 00:21:14,371
And He's introduced
the kingdom to all

457
00:21:14,404 --> 00:21:17,642
who have a broken and a
contrite heart-poor in spirit.

458
00:21:17,674 --> 00:21:19,677
And so, even in the
Sermon on the Mount

459
00:21:19,711 --> 00:21:23,414
Jesus makes it plain that it
is not our works that save us.

460
00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:25,850
He said at the very opening of
the Sermon on the Mount,

461
00:21:25,883 --> 00:21:27,786
"Blessed are the
poor in spirit,

462
00:21:27,818 --> 00:21:31,056
for theirs, and theirs alone is
the kingdom of heaven."

463
00:21:31,088 --> 00:21:34,326
The only people that belong
to the realm of Christ,

464
00:21:34,358 --> 00:21:37,595
are those who recognize that
they are spiritually bankrupt.

465
00:21:37,627 --> 00:21:39,931
That they have no righteousness
of their own-

466
00:21:39,963 --> 00:21:42,032
that's what "poor in spirit"
means.

467
00:21:42,066 --> 00:21:44,736
And He goes on to say,
"Blessed are those who mourn,

468
00:21:44,769 --> 00:21:46,503
for they shall be comforted."

469
00:21:46,537 --> 00:21:49,908
The idea being that-that the
Christian is someone who

470
00:21:49,941 --> 00:21:51,910
mourns over his sin,

471
00:21:51,942 --> 00:21:54,645
mourns over his lack of
righteousness,

472
00:21:54,679 --> 00:21:56,648
looks at the perfection of God

473
00:21:56,681 --> 00:22:00,418
looks at the perfection of His
law, and says, "I fall short!"

474
00:22:00,451 --> 00:22:05,457
And he mourns over his personal
inadequacy before a holy God.

475
00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:07,558
Jesus begins Mark,

476
00:22:07,592 --> 00:22:09,427
steps out in Mark's gospel,

477
00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:11,496
"The time is fulfilled,

478
00:22:11,528 --> 00:22:13,397
the kingdom of God
is at hand;

479
00:22:13,431 --> 00:22:15,900
repent and believe
the good news."

480
00:22:15,932 --> 00:22:17,434
What good news?

481
00:22:17,468 --> 00:22:19,403
That "I am the
light of the world."

482
00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:21,805
That "I am the bread of life."

483
00:22:21,838 --> 00:22:24,975
That "I am the good shepherd who
gives His life for the sheep."

484
00:22:25,009 --> 00:22:26,745
Gives His life for the sheep?

485
00:22:26,778 --> 00:22:28,579
Why would He give His life
for the sheep?

486
00:22:28,613 --> 00:22:30,914
"All we like sheep
have gone astray,

487
00:22:30,948 --> 00:22:32,784
we've turned, everyone,
to his own way;

488
00:22:32,817 --> 00:22:36,054
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

489
00:22:36,086 --> 00:22:38,856
"I am the 'Him'" says Jesus.

490
00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:42,494
Anytime, anywhere, anyone
has ever been saved,

491
00:22:42,527 --> 00:22:46,498
it is by grace alone, through
faith alone, in Christ alone.

492
00:22:46,530 --> 00:22:49,733
The call of the gospel is
a call to follow Christ.

493
00:22:49,767 --> 00:22:52,871
And Christ made that call,
He said, "Follow me."

494
00:22:52,903 --> 00:22:55,673
Paul makes the call in
the same way saying,

495
00:22:55,705 --> 00:22:58,776
"We preach Christ
and Him crucified."

496
00:23:03,847 --> 00:23:05,482
One of the
problems, I think,

497
00:23:05,516 --> 00:23:07,919
with the American Gospel today,
is that we start

498
00:23:07,951 --> 00:23:10,054
in the very wrong place.

499
00:23:10,086 --> 00:23:13,625
We start with the
cross of Jesus Christ.

500
00:23:13,657 --> 00:23:15,526
We're asking them
to accept a Savior

501
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:17,561
that they don't even
know they need!

502
00:23:17,595 --> 00:23:21,865
So to me, this is why we have
so many false conversions today-

503
00:23:21,898 --> 00:23:24,168
we've only given them
half the message.

504
00:23:24,201 --> 00:23:26,104
What we have
to understand

505
00:23:26,136 --> 00:23:31,009
is the gospel primarily has to
do with the attributes of God,

506
00:23:31,041 --> 00:23:33,043
not just the sin of man.

507
00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:36,013
You see, the sin of man
wouldn't be a problem

508
00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:38,549
if God was like us.

509
00:23:38,583 --> 00:23:40,118
But God is not like us.

510
00:23:40,151 --> 00:23:42,554
And all His
attributes fit perfectly

511
00:23:42,586 --> 00:23:44,855
together into one
glorious whole.

512
00:23:44,888 --> 00:23:49,026
And you can sum them all up
by saying, "God is holy."

513
00:23:49,059 --> 00:23:51,628
And of course
the signature text for that is

514
00:23:51,662 --> 00:23:56,000
Isaiah chapter 6, when the
year that King Uzziah died,

515
00:23:56,032 --> 00:23:59,203
the prophet Isaiah
went into the temple,

516
00:23:59,237 --> 00:24:02,807
and he encounters God

517
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:06,944
in a vision that is
just extraordinary,

518
00:24:06,978 --> 00:24:10,682
as he sees God high
and lifted up.

519
00:24:10,714 --> 00:24:15,886
And then he hears the angels
crying out, "Holy, holy, holy!"

520
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,889
When something is repeated
three times

521
00:24:17,922 --> 00:24:20,592
it takes it to the
superlative degree.

522
00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:26,964
What the angels are crying out
is, "Holy, holier, holiest!"

523
00:24:26,998 --> 00:24:29,567
Something
we see very often in

524
00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:31,602
progressive Christianity

525
00:24:31,635 --> 00:24:33,605
is the redefinition of words.

526
00:24:33,637 --> 00:24:36,540
So they will takes words
that Christians have

527
00:24:36,574 --> 00:24:40,512
historically understood to
be defined in a certain way,

528
00:24:40,545 --> 00:24:42,814
they will assign them
a new definition

529
00:24:42,846 --> 00:24:46,183
and then just use them in
regular conversation as if

530
00:24:46,217 --> 00:24:48,219
we all understand
the new meaning!

531
00:24:48,251 --> 00:24:52,155
So, a great example of this
comes from Nadia Bolz-Weber

532
00:24:52,189 --> 00:24:55,994
who is a progressive Lutheran
minister who wrote a book

533
00:24:56,027 --> 00:24:59,029
on biblical sexuality.
And in her view,

534
00:24:59,063 --> 00:25:03,801
we need to completely have an
absolute upheaval of

535
00:25:03,834 --> 00:25:05,937
the Christian view of sexuality.
In fact she says

536
00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:08,239
we need to take everything
that we've believed

537
00:25:08,271 --> 00:25:11,208
for the last 2000 years
and burn it to the ground!

538
00:25:11,241 --> 00:25:15,012
So one of the foundations upon
which she builds her argument

539
00:25:15,046 --> 00:25:19,984
is her definition of the word
"holy" or "holiness".

540
00:25:20,017 --> 00:25:23,321
And so she defines the
word "holiness" to mean

541
00:25:23,354 --> 00:25:25,757
something more like "unity."

542
00:25:25,789 --> 00:25:29,661
Being together. It means there
being a unity between people

543
00:25:29,693 --> 00:25:31,562
and unity with God.

544
00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,065
And so this is why she can

545
00:25:34,097 --> 00:25:37,034
give an example of someone
having a one night stand

546
00:25:37,067 --> 00:25:39,871
and call it "holy," because
there's the unifying of

547
00:25:39,903 --> 00:25:41,138
two people.

548
00:25:41,172 --> 00:25:43,274
Well of course,
biblically speaking,

549
00:25:43,307 --> 00:25:46,911
"holiness" actually means
the exact opposite!

550
00:25:46,943 --> 00:25:50,213
In fact, biblical holiness has
to do with God

551
00:25:50,247 --> 00:25:54,619
being separate from sin, being
completely "other" than sin.

552
00:25:54,652 --> 00:25:58,756
He's transcendent, totally
set apart from His creation.

553
00:25:58,788 --> 00:26:01,593
And whenever
sinful man is in the presence

554
00:26:01,625 --> 00:26:03,927
of holy God, he becomes

555
00:26:03,961 --> 00:26:07,899
painfully aware of
his own unholiness.

556
00:26:08,298 --> 00:26:11,068
And Isaiah-he's undone!

557
00:26:11,102 --> 00:26:16,608
And when he says, "Woe is me"
he is saying "cursed is me!"

558
00:26:16,641 --> 00:26:18,942
Then one of the
seraphim flew to me with a

559
00:26:18,976 --> 00:26:21,079
burning coal in his hand,

560
00:26:21,112 --> 00:26:23,815
which he had taken from
the altar with tongs.

561
00:26:23,847 --> 00:26:25,950
He touched my mouth
with it and said,

562
00:26:25,982 --> 00:26:28,986
"Behold, this has
touched your lips;

563
00:26:29,019 --> 00:26:31,388
and your iniquity
is taken away.

564
00:26:31,422 --> 00:26:33,857
and your sin is forgiven."

565
00:26:33,891 --> 00:26:37,729
The fact that
God forgives wicked men

566
00:26:37,761 --> 00:26:40,631
presents a theological problem.

567
00:26:40,664 --> 00:26:42,866
Now people say, "Why would that
be a problem?

568
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:46,838
It demonstrates that God's love,
and that God is merciful."

569
00:26:46,871 --> 00:26:49,407
Well God is love,
and God is merciful,

570
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,808
but He's not only that.

571
00:26:51,842 --> 00:26:55,713
And if you look over here
in Exodus 34

572
00:26:55,746 --> 00:26:58,650
I'll read this to you. It's one
of the greatest revelations

573
00:26:58,682 --> 00:27:00,917
of God in the scriptures!

574
00:27:00,951 --> 00:27:04,721
Moses asks God to
show him His glory.

575
00:27:04,755 --> 00:27:07,725
And He does! And then this is
the following that pursues,

576
00:27:07,758 --> 00:27:11,062
It says, "The Lord descended in
the cloud and stood there

577
00:27:11,095 --> 00:27:13,131
with him as he called upon
the name of the Lord.

578
00:27:13,163 --> 00:27:16,099
Then the Lord passed by in front
of him and proclaimed,

579
00:27:16,133 --> 00:27:19,103
"The Lord, the Lord God,
compassionate and gracious,

580
00:27:19,135 --> 00:27:22,406
slow to anger, and abounding in
lovingkindness and truth;

581
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,709
who keeps lovingkindness
for thousands,

582
00:27:24,741 --> 00:27:28,078
who forgives iniquity,
transgression and sin..."

583
00:27:28,112 --> 00:27:29,714
So far so good!

584
00:27:29,747 --> 00:27:33,317
That's really good news
for fallen man!

585
00:27:33,349 --> 00:27:36,753
But then we go a little bit
farther and it says this,

586
00:27:36,787 --> 00:27:42,026
"He will by no means leave
the guilty unpunished."

587
00:27:42,058 --> 00:27:44,796
How does that go together?

588
00:27:44,828 --> 00:27:46,329
That's the tension-

589
00:27:46,363 --> 00:27:48,099
I call that sort of the
riddle of the Old Testament!

590
00:27:48,132 --> 00:27:50,368
It's not tap-dancing around the
nature of God-

591
00:27:50,401 --> 00:27:52,470
it's saying very
straightforwardly,

592
00:27:52,502 --> 00:27:54,838
this is what God is like.

593
00:27:54,872 --> 00:27:56,307
Now look at this-

594
00:27:56,339 --> 00:28:00,243
How can God forgive all types
and kinds of sin,

595
00:28:00,277 --> 00:28:07,050
and yet at the same time punish
every type and kind of sin?

596
00:28:07,084 --> 00:28:10,888
Ultimately,
verses like that drive me

597
00:28:10,921 --> 00:28:13,790
into the mystical
side of theology.

598
00:28:13,824 --> 00:28:16,060
I have to disabuse
myself of thinking,

599
00:28:16,093 --> 00:28:18,162
"That is a rational
contradiction!"

600
00:28:18,194 --> 00:28:22,133
How can you say you forgive
everybody, but not the guilty?

601
00:28:22,165 --> 00:28:24,335
We're all guilty, so you don't
forgive anybody?!

602
00:28:24,367 --> 00:28:26,136
If you're not
forgiving the guilty,

603
00:28:26,170 --> 00:28:28,406
who are you forgiving?!

604
00:28:28,439 --> 00:28:32,442
God is no fool, and He does
not give contradictions.

605
00:28:32,476 --> 00:28:34,445
That is who God is.

606
00:28:34,478 --> 00:28:38,416
God is a God who in our minds
is constantly at tension.

607
00:28:38,449 --> 00:28:42,053
Merciful, loving, forgiving...

608
00:28:42,086 --> 00:28:44,154
but also not forgiving!

609
00:28:44,188 --> 00:28:47,759
And He says, "I am loving,
but I am just."

610
00:28:47,791 --> 00:28:49,159
That's interpretation!

611
00:28:49,192 --> 00:28:52,963
That's not actually
what the verse says!

612
00:28:52,997 --> 00:28:54,532
So I'm, I'm-

613
00:28:54,565 --> 00:28:57,235
you know we all have our
right to interpret it

614
00:28:57,268 --> 00:28:59,036
but it doesn't say,

615
00:28:59,068 --> 00:29:01,873
"And God is just" in that verse-
that's not what it says.

616
00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:03,374
That may be what it means.

617
00:29:03,406 --> 00:29:06,343
But what the verse
actually says is,

618
00:29:06,376 --> 00:29:08,512
"He does not forgive the
guilty."

619
00:29:08,546 --> 00:29:11,481
That drives me out of my head
and into my heart, and say

620
00:29:11,515 --> 00:29:13,484
this is verse

621
00:29:13,517 --> 00:29:15,385
for me to

622
00:29:15,419 --> 00:29:17,788
reflect on and digest,

623
00:29:17,821 --> 00:29:21,191
and kind of
existentially experience,

624
00:29:21,224 --> 00:29:24,861
as opposed to it being a
verse for me to figure out.

625
00:29:24,894 --> 00:29:27,330
And then we go a little bit
further in the scriptures

626
00:29:27,364 --> 00:29:30,835
and we can also see this in
Proverbs 17:15,

627
00:29:30,867 --> 00:29:34,070
"He who justifies the wicked and
he who condemns the righteous,

628
00:29:34,104 --> 00:29:37,408
Both of them alike are an
abomination to the Lord."

629
00:29:37,441 --> 00:29:41,479
Most of our hymns in the church
have to do with God

630
00:29:41,511 --> 00:29:45,148
justifying us who were wicked!

631
00:29:45,182 --> 00:29:47,117
But here in Proverbs
it says that

632
00:29:47,151 --> 00:29:50,955
anyone who justifies the
wicked-it's an abomination to God!

633
00:29:50,988 --> 00:29:54,025
so how can God
justify wicked men,

634
00:29:54,057 --> 00:29:57,494
as we see in Romans chapter 4,
and at the same time,

635
00:29:57,528 --> 00:30:01,097
avoid the title of
"an abomination?"

636
00:30:01,131 --> 00:30:06,838
The question is,
"How is forgiveness

637
00:30:06,871 --> 00:30:09,974
meted out by God?"

638
00:30:10,007 --> 00:30:12,910
Are there strings attached
to God's forgiveness?

639
00:30:12,942 --> 00:30:15,846
Now, this is one of the most

640
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,051
comforting and beautiful
passages in the entire Bible,

641
00:30:20,084 --> 00:30:24,889
taken from the book of Psalms,
and found in Romans 4:7-8.

642
00:30:24,922 --> 00:30:28,058
And it says this: "Blessed are
those whose lawless deeds

643
00:30:28,092 --> 00:30:31,929
have been forgiven, and whose
sins have been covered.

644
00:30:31,961 --> 00:30:35,633
Blessed is the man whose sin the
Lord will not take into account."

645
00:30:35,665 --> 00:30:39,035
What do we call a judge
who "covers" sin?

646
00:30:39,068 --> 00:30:41,504
We say that he's unjust,
we say that he's corrupt.

647
00:30:41,538 --> 00:30:44,107
And yet here we see God,

648
00:30:44,141 --> 00:30:46,944
who makes the claim to be
righteous and holy

649
00:30:46,977 --> 00:30:49,313
and He's covering sin.

650
00:30:49,346 --> 00:30:52,482
The justice of
God is something that is

651
00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:54,285
revealed in the Bible

652
00:30:54,317 --> 00:30:57,488
as being fundamentally rooted
in the nature of God.

653
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,325
God is called,
"The Judge of all."

654
00:31:01,357 --> 00:31:04,028
God is a
righteous judge,

655
00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:07,365
and a God who has indignation
every day.

656
00:31:07,397 --> 00:31:10,367
And the reason why He is the
judge is because He is

657
00:31:10,401 --> 00:31:12,503
morally righteous.

658
00:31:12,536 --> 00:31:14,337
"Righteousness and justice

659
00:31:14,371 --> 00:31:16,540
are the foundation
of your throne;

660
00:31:16,573 --> 00:31:20,044
lovingkindness and
truth go before you."

661
00:31:20,076 --> 00:31:24,515
All human beings
have this longing for justice.

662
00:31:24,548 --> 00:31:28,286
It's in our bones. It is deep
into the human psyche

663
00:31:28,318 --> 00:31:31,622
that we want the world
to be made right!

664
00:31:31,654 --> 00:31:33,423
As an atheist,

665
00:31:33,457 --> 00:31:36,560
I often saw the suffering
in the world as-

666
00:31:36,593 --> 00:31:40,698
as giving me justification for
my hatred towards God.

667
00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:42,633
"How would He allow this
to happen?"

668
00:31:42,665 --> 00:31:44,701
You know, right after I became
a Christian I started

669
00:31:44,734 --> 00:31:46,369
working in the inner city
with poor people,

670
00:31:46,403 --> 00:31:49,039
and I would meet people
that were suffering!

671
00:31:49,073 --> 00:31:51,375
I met girls that
had been raped,

672
00:31:51,407 --> 00:31:54,344
and kids that had their
fathers be killed!

673
00:31:54,377 --> 00:31:56,513
I struggled with evil

674
00:31:56,547 --> 00:31:59,317
to the degree that
I wanted to take vengeance

675
00:31:59,349 --> 00:32:01,251
against evil people.

676
00:32:01,285 --> 00:32:05,523
And I'll be perfectly honest,
I joined the military

677
00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:08,459
so that I could
go kill evil people.

678
00:32:08,491 --> 00:32:13,163
I learned through scripture

679
00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:16,166
that that is misplaced.

680
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,404
Scripture says that,
"Vengeance is the Lord's."

681
00:32:21,070 --> 00:32:23,340
And over the
course of that time I would say

682
00:32:23,374 --> 00:32:26,143
that my commitment
to loving relationships

683
00:32:26,175 --> 00:32:28,244
and to social justice

684
00:32:28,278 --> 00:32:30,014
grew and grew and grew,

685
00:32:30,047 --> 00:32:34,451
and my ability to believe in
a supernatural person

686
00:32:34,484 --> 00:32:38,455
who intervened on behalf
of human beings,

687
00:32:38,489 --> 00:32:41,525
kind of died the death of a
thousand unanswered prayers.

688
00:32:41,557 --> 00:32:45,261
I was a believer in a
sovereign God who actually

689
00:32:45,295 --> 00:32:47,664
predestined everything
and ran the world, and-

690
00:32:47,698 --> 00:32:49,633
when somebody was sick, we
would pray like, "God,

691
00:32:49,665 --> 00:32:51,469
heal sister Mary!"

692
00:32:51,501 --> 00:32:53,537
And in my own life,

693
00:32:53,569 --> 00:32:57,140
my wife suffered through years
and years- and continues to

694
00:32:57,173 --> 00:33:00,144
suffer through years of
medical problems,

695
00:33:00,176 --> 00:33:04,414
very serious genetic disorders,
and botched surgeries,

696
00:33:04,448 --> 00:33:06,150
and near-death experiences.

697
00:33:06,182 --> 00:33:08,586
And I mean, in my personal
experience even

698
00:33:08,618 --> 00:33:11,422
just this last week, I've
had a lot of pain!

699
00:33:11,454 --> 00:33:13,289
My daughter's in a lot of pain.

700
00:33:13,323 --> 00:33:16,394
She has the same genetic
disorder that I do.

701
00:33:16,426 --> 00:33:20,163
I told her, you know, there
will be times in your life

702
00:33:20,196 --> 00:33:23,600
where whether it's mental
suffering, emotional, spiritual,

703
00:33:23,634 --> 00:33:25,368
or physical,

704
00:33:25,402 --> 00:33:31,241
where there is nothing you can
say, but "God, please!"

705
00:33:31,275 --> 00:33:38,149
And we realize that there is
no way that we can go on

706
00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:40,050
without Him!

707
00:33:40,084 --> 00:33:42,186
I have a friend who says like,
"Nothing fails like prayer."

708
00:33:42,219 --> 00:33:44,355
ANd that was my experience
like in the inner city.

709
00:33:44,387 --> 00:33:47,257
Could you heal this lady
who's got six kids

710
00:33:47,290 --> 00:33:49,793
that are depending on her?
Could you heal her from cancer?

711
00:33:49,826 --> 00:33:52,296
And she would die!

712
00:33:52,328 --> 00:33:54,597
Life shouldn't look like

713
00:33:54,631 --> 00:33:56,467
a kid in a wheelchair.

714
00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:00,136
Life shouldn't look like
cancer for the second time.

715
00:34:00,170 --> 00:34:04,108
But the thing is-
it's not about that!

716
00:34:04,141 --> 00:34:07,411
It's about giving God glory!

717
00:34:07,443 --> 00:34:10,213
Either God knows
this is happening,

718
00:34:10,246 --> 00:34:12,382
and this is His idea of
a "good time," in which case,

719
00:34:12,416 --> 00:34:14,684
I'm not sure
I like God anymore!

720
00:34:14,717 --> 00:34:17,420
Or maybe God isn't as much in
control of the world

721
00:34:17,454 --> 00:34:18,856
as I thought He was.

722
00:34:18,889 --> 00:34:21,525
And in rapid succession,

723
00:34:21,557 --> 00:34:25,695
as a young Christian, of facing
these really terrible situations

724
00:34:25,728 --> 00:34:29,399
God showed me how He was
working through those things,

725
00:34:29,432 --> 00:34:32,869
and He reoriented me from
a perspective of entitlement

726
00:34:32,902 --> 00:34:36,139
and pride and
judging God for He did,

727
00:34:36,172 --> 00:34:40,276
to a perspective of seeing
God glorified in suffering.

728
00:34:40,309 --> 00:34:43,780
And rejoicing for the way He was
able to turn terrible things

729
00:34:43,813 --> 00:34:45,582
into good things.

730
00:34:45,615 --> 00:34:47,451
In my lily-white suburb you
could get away with

731
00:34:47,483 --> 00:34:48,853
the sovereignty argument!

732
00:34:48,885 --> 00:34:50,621
You can't...

733
00:34:50,653 --> 00:34:52,856
You can't have a God who is in
charge of everything

734
00:34:52,889 --> 00:34:56,292
if you're in the inner city
and still end up liking Him!

735
00:34:56,326 --> 00:35:00,231
Once I started suffering

736
00:35:00,264 --> 00:35:03,534
it's almost like
that taught me

737
00:35:03,567 --> 00:35:07,204
more and more about
how much God loved me.

738
00:35:07,237 --> 00:35:10,173
And the only way I can
explain that is by God's grace!

739
00:35:10,206 --> 00:35:12,143
Because it makes no sense!

740
00:35:12,175 --> 00:35:14,545
If I could get
those years that she suffered

741
00:35:14,577 --> 00:35:17,213
back, and allow her to be happy
and healthy in those years-

742
00:35:17,246 --> 00:35:18,615
I wouldn't!

743
00:35:18,648 --> 00:35:21,618
Because I can see how God
in His sovereignty

744
00:35:21,652 --> 00:35:24,588
lead us closer to Him

745
00:35:24,621 --> 00:35:28,159
than we ever would have been
had we not suffered in that way.

746
00:35:28,192 --> 00:35:31,394
He just
shows us that ultimate act of

747
00:35:31,427 --> 00:35:34,632
surrendering into suffering.

748
00:35:34,664 --> 00:35:40,371
And ours is nothing, nothing,
and nowhere near His.

749
00:35:40,403 --> 00:35:43,206
We also
have to be honest to realize

750
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,676
if God is going to purge
the world of all evil,

751
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:48,913
get rid of all the sin and

752
00:35:48,945 --> 00:35:51,848
brokenness and
evil of this world-

753
00:35:51,882 --> 00:35:54,784
just a little bit of self-
examination, and self-reflection

754
00:35:54,818 --> 00:35:57,588
would lead us to realize,
"Uh oh!"

755
00:35:57,621 --> 00:36:01,592
Our longing for justice
would come back against us!

756
00:36:01,625 --> 00:36:04,795
So the great question in the
entire Bible is this:

757
00:36:04,827 --> 00:36:10,668
If God is righteous, how can
He pardon men who are wicked

758
00:36:10,701 --> 00:36:12,869
and still maintain
His righteousness?

759
00:36:12,902 --> 00:36:16,873
Well, forgiveness in the Bible
carries a great cost,

760
00:36:16,907 --> 00:36:20,376
because in order for God to
forgive the sinner,

761
00:36:20,409 --> 00:36:23,880
God's justice must be satisfied!

762
00:36:23,914 --> 00:36:28,586
And therefore, Jesus had
to pay a penalty

763
00:36:28,619 --> 00:36:33,557
that would satisfy the wrath
of an infinite God!

764
00:36:34,958 --> 00:36:37,695
I think
in the present day

765
00:36:37,728 --> 00:36:39,762
there's a lot of discomfort

766
00:36:39,795 --> 00:36:42,865
with the idea of God
being wrathful,

767
00:36:42,898 --> 00:36:46,569
and there's a lot of discomfort
with the idea of

768
00:36:46,603 --> 00:36:49,639
divinely sanctioned violence!

769
00:36:49,672 --> 00:36:53,309
Is it not true, not that
long ago USA Today

770
00:36:53,342 --> 00:36:57,280
talks about the Presbyterian
Church fighting over a song-

771
00:36:57,313 --> 00:36:58,848
"In Christ Alone."

772
00:36:58,882 --> 00:37:03,988
♪ In Christ alone
my hope is found ♪

773
00:37:04,021 --> 00:37:08,792
And for years people had been
changing one of the lyrics!

774
00:37:08,824 --> 00:37:13,931
♪ 'Til on that cross
as Jesus died ♪

775
00:37:13,963 --> 00:37:18,869
♪ The wrath of God
was satisfied ♪

776
00:37:18,902 --> 00:37:22,706
Some churches on the more
progressive side who had trouble

777
00:37:22,739 --> 00:37:25,675
with this idea that God's wrath
needed to be satisfied,

778
00:37:25,708 --> 00:37:28,478
had just changed
that one line to

779
00:37:28,512 --> 00:37:30,314
God's love was magnified.

780
00:37:30,347 --> 00:37:33,484
So when Jesus died on the cross,
God's love was magnified.

781
00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:37,487
Well, when the new hymnal of the
Presbyterian Church USA-

782
00:37:37,521 --> 00:37:39,690
which is one of the larger
denominations-

783
00:37:39,722 --> 00:37:41,659
when they were doing their
new hymnal,

784
00:37:41,692 --> 00:37:44,628
they actually went to the
copyright holders of the song

785
00:37:44,661 --> 00:37:46,063
and said, you know,

786
00:37:46,096 --> 00:37:48,998
"We want permission
to change this one line."

787
00:37:49,032 --> 00:37:51,635
And the answer on the part
of the hymn writers, I think

788
00:37:51,668 --> 00:37:54,405
has been a very strong,
"No! You mustn't change it!"

789
00:37:54,438 --> 00:37:56,507
Because they understand

790
00:37:56,539 --> 00:37:59,342
that God's wrath and God's love

791
00:37:59,376 --> 00:38:01,912
are not in opposition
to one another,

792
00:38:01,945 --> 00:38:05,048
but the one explains the other.

793
00:38:05,081 --> 00:38:07,451
And this is the
dilemma of the American pulpit:

794
00:38:07,483 --> 00:38:10,721
we've got a God of wrath
versus a God of love,

795
00:38:10,753 --> 00:38:15,458
which is a dichotomy that the
Bible doesn't present!

796
00:38:15,492 --> 00:38:19,330
So it just shows the split!

797
00:38:19,362 --> 00:38:21,798
I mean both that the
Presbyterians wouldn't include it,

798
00:38:21,831 --> 00:38:23,534
and that the song writers

799
00:38:23,567 --> 00:38:26,737
wouldn't allow a
pretty minor change!

800
00:38:26,769 --> 00:38:29,873
It's a classic illustration of
the attempt to kind of

801
00:38:29,905 --> 00:38:33,943
contextualize the hard parts of
the Bible in such a way

802
00:38:33,976 --> 00:38:37,413
as to make people comfortable,
and at the same time,

803
00:38:37,447 --> 00:38:39,817
deny the truth of the gospel.

804
00:38:39,849 --> 00:38:42,752
The one man said, who wanted
that lyric changed,

805
00:38:42,786 --> 00:38:45,822
"This lyric comes close to
saying that God killed Jesus.

806
00:38:45,856 --> 00:38:49,427
The cross is not an instrument
of God's wrath."

807
00:38:50,927 --> 00:38:53,764
The title of my
most recent book is

808
00:38:53,797 --> 00:38:56,400
"Did God Kill Jesus?"

809
00:38:56,432 --> 00:38:59,570
Which I used because

810
00:38:59,603 --> 00:39:01,838
it was a quandary I had myself,

811
00:39:01,871 --> 00:39:04,474
and it was something that I had
heard from a lot of people,

812
00:39:04,507 --> 00:39:07,477
and that is, they're struggling
with their understandings

813
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:10,447
of the cross, and Jesus'
death on the cross,

814
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,119
in which it seemed like God had
to exact some kind of revenge

815
00:39:15,152 --> 00:39:17,554
or payment from Jesus.

816
00:39:17,586 --> 00:39:21,692
If God needs someone to
"pay the price" for our sin,

817
00:39:21,724 --> 00:39:26,996
the question is, "Does He ever
really forgive anyone at all?"

818
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:29,400
So how can He do that?
How can He forgive sins?

819
00:39:29,432 --> 00:39:31,135
Does He just overlook them?

820
00:39:31,168 --> 00:39:33,003
And the biblical answer is:
"No!"

821
00:39:33,036 --> 00:39:35,572
That's what the death
of Christ is all about.

822
00:39:35,605 --> 00:39:39,108
He paid the price of
other people's sins.

823
00:39:39,141 --> 00:39:42,478
Some people call it
the "Penal Substitution Theory"

824
00:39:42,512 --> 00:39:44,414
of the atonement.

825
00:39:44,447 --> 00:39:48,152
I refer to it as "The Payment"
model of the atonement.

826
00:39:48,184 --> 00:39:52,489
So the big question underlying
the book, and I think underlying

827
00:39:52,521 --> 00:39:54,525
the cross in general-

828
00:39:54,557 --> 00:39:57,059
when you think about it
theologically at least-is:

829
00:39:57,092 --> 00:39:59,797
"Is God the author of the
crucifixion?"

830
00:39:59,829 --> 00:40:05,701
Explain to me how the cross
could originate in God.

831
00:40:05,735 --> 00:40:09,807
Or, to put it more bluntly:
"Did God kill Jesus?"

832
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,443
Well attacks on penal
substitution have been around

833
00:40:13,476 --> 00:40:15,445
for a long time, but

834
00:40:15,478 --> 00:40:18,748
I think they made their way into
the larger evangelical culture

835
00:40:18,782 --> 00:40:20,550
through the book, "The Shack."

836
00:40:20,583 --> 00:40:22,585
And because it was in
novel style,

837
00:40:22,619 --> 00:40:24,521
it wasn't completely clear-

838
00:40:24,554 --> 00:40:26,757
the theology that was
being taught in the book.

839
00:40:27,023 --> 00:40:29,626
That's when your whole
wrath thing comes in, right?

840
00:40:29,659 --> 00:40:31,561
My what?

841
00:40:31,594 --> 00:40:33,496
Your wrath.

842
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:35,699
You lost me there!

843
00:40:35,731 --> 00:40:38,735
One thing that was made clear
in the The Shack, though,

844
00:40:38,768 --> 00:40:41,672
was that Jesus' death
accomplished

845
00:40:41,704 --> 00:40:45,174
the reconciliation of all
human beings to God.

846
00:40:45,208 --> 00:40:48,110
Everybody knows you punish
the people who disappoint you.

847
00:40:48,143 --> 00:40:50,713
Hmm...

848
00:40:50,746 --> 00:40:52,949
No!

849
00:40:52,983 --> 00:40:54,818
I don't need to punish people.

850
00:40:54,851 --> 00:40:56,820
Sin is its own punishment.

851
00:40:56,853 --> 00:40:59,155
Well a few years later,
William Paul Young,

852
00:40:59,188 --> 00:41:01,791
the author of The Shack,
came out with a book called

853
00:41:01,824 --> 00:41:03,826
"Lies We Believe About God."

854
00:41:03,860 --> 00:41:08,097
And in "Lies We Believe About
God," William Paul Young teaches

855
00:41:08,130 --> 00:41:12,034
that it's a lie to think that
God originated the cross-

856
00:41:12,068 --> 00:41:15,506
that it was God's idea
to send Jesus

857
00:41:15,539 --> 00:41:17,608
to die on the cross
for our sins.

858
00:41:17,641 --> 00:41:19,675
And that if that's true,

859
00:41:19,708 --> 00:41:23,279
that makes Him nothing more
than a "cosmic abuser."

860
00:41:23,313 --> 00:41:25,148
And this is a theme
that's very big

861
00:41:25,181 --> 00:41:28,719
in the progressive Christian
church-is the idea

862
00:41:28,751 --> 00:41:30,887
of "cosmic child abuse."

863
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,257
The problem with this way of
thinking about the cross is that

864
00:41:34,291 --> 00:41:38,795
it turns God into some kind of
like divine child abuser!

865
00:41:38,827 --> 00:41:43,032
And so this is largely rejected
in the progressive church.

866
00:41:43,065 --> 00:41:45,668
I don't think God killed Jesus!

867
00:41:45,702 --> 00:41:47,604
I think God died on the cross.

868
00:41:47,637 --> 00:41:49,539
Did God kill Jesus?

869
00:41:49,572 --> 00:41:51,208
Yes!

870
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,579
Did Jesus go to
the cross unwillingly?

871
00:41:55,612 --> 00:41:57,748
No!

872
00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:02,853
The idea that God

873
00:42:02,885 --> 00:42:08,092
would say, "I'm going to punish
somebody else for your sins."

874
00:42:10,693 --> 00:42:13,297
- it doesn't make
any sense anywhere!

875
00:42:13,329 --> 00:42:18,902
Every version of the
atonement has problems.

876
00:42:18,934 --> 00:42:21,837
The problem with
penal substitution

877
00:42:21,871 --> 00:42:26,777
is that it puts God under,
or beholden to,

878
00:42:26,809 --> 00:42:31,081
some transcendent
version of justice,

879
00:42:31,114 --> 00:42:35,117
that even God has to live
under that umbrella,

880
00:42:35,150 --> 00:42:37,253
and say, "Well I can't just
forgive these people,

881
00:42:37,286 --> 00:42:39,822
someone needs to pay the debt!

882
00:42:39,856 --> 00:42:42,025
Someone needs to
pay the penalty!"

883
00:42:42,057 --> 00:42:43,826
"And so I'd like to
forgive you all,

884
00:42:43,860 --> 00:42:47,130
but I've got to
pay off 'Justice' first!"

885
00:42:47,163 --> 00:42:49,365
It begs the question,
"Who's in charge here?!"

886
00:42:49,398 --> 00:42:53,636
God could say, "No I don't need
these people to pay me back!

887
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:55,672
I'm just going to
forgive their debt!

888
00:42:55,704 --> 00:42:57,173
I'm going to declare
a year of Jubilee-

889
00:42:57,206 --> 00:43:00,978
all human sin is forgiven!
Nobody has to die!"

890
00:43:02,711 --> 00:43:04,947
When we say God
is perfectly just,

891
00:43:04,981 --> 00:43:07,217
and that He can't
just wink at sin

892
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:10,753
and forgive sinners without
satisfying that justice,

893
00:43:10,786 --> 00:43:13,155
we're not putting an external
standard above God

894
00:43:13,188 --> 00:43:15,858
that controls His motivations
or His actions.

895
00:43:15,891 --> 00:43:19,195
This justice, just like His
goodness, and His immutability,

896
00:43:19,228 --> 00:43:23,733
and His love, are all a part of
His nature and His character.

897
00:43:24,434 --> 00:43:26,136
For the Lord is righteous,

898
00:43:26,168 --> 00:43:27,971
He loves righteousness;

899
00:43:28,003 --> 00:43:30,641
The upright will
behold His face.

900
00:43:30,673 --> 00:43:32,942
They're definitional
of who God is!

901
00:43:32,976 --> 00:43:34,711
And we know that-

902
00:43:34,744 --> 00:43:36,646
not because that's how we like
to think about God,

903
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:39,849
but because that's how God has
revealed Himself in scripture.

904
00:43:39,882 --> 00:43:42,718
I think that's such
a huge theological prblem

905
00:43:42,751 --> 00:43:45,989
to say, "These attributes
are just a part of God

906
00:43:46,021 --> 00:43:47,690
and God cannot change."

907
00:43:47,724 --> 00:43:50,661
Or, "God is beholden to
these attributes of God."

908
00:43:50,693 --> 00:43:51,894
Who says?!

909
00:43:51,927 --> 00:43:53,663
It's God!

910
00:43:53,697 --> 00:43:56,266
God doesn't have to be beholden
to any attributes!

911
00:43:56,298 --> 00:43:58,067
It's like people
say things like,

912
00:43:58,101 --> 00:43:59,869
"You can't have love
without justice!"

913
00:43:59,902 --> 00:44:02,204
And everyone is in the pew
is like, "Oh yeah...

914
00:44:02,237 --> 00:44:04,240
Boy, that makes perfect sense!"

915
00:44:04,273 --> 00:44:07,677
Who said you can't have
love without justice?

916
00:44:07,710 --> 00:44:09,413
There's nothing in the Bible
that says you can't have

917
00:44:09,445 --> 00:44:11,081
love without justice!

918
00:44:11,114 --> 00:44:14,251
There are all sorts
of attributes of God.

919
00:44:14,284 --> 00:44:18,387
And one of the ones that the
church used to talk a lot about

920
00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:21,290
and has forgotten, is called
the simplicity of God-

921
00:44:21,324 --> 00:44:23,793
which doesn't mean that
God is a simpleton.

922
00:44:23,827 --> 00:44:29,199
But it means that
whatever God has, God is.

923
00:44:29,231 --> 00:44:32,134
So it's not that He has

924
00:44:32,168 --> 00:44:36,405
50% of love,
and 50% of justice,

925
00:44:36,438 --> 00:44:40,743
or we can break it up into
smaller percentages so that

926
00:44:40,777 --> 00:44:44,246
He has a little of this,
and a little of that in Him.

927
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:49,219
No, He actually has 100%
of every attribute!

928
00:44:49,251 --> 00:44:51,320
That's why He's perfect!

929
00:44:51,353 --> 00:44:53,255
For example,
when God demonstrates

930
00:44:53,289 --> 00:44:58,195
righteousness or justice, He
does it in the most loving way.

931
00:44:58,228 --> 00:45:02,999
And when He demonstrates love,
He does it righteously!

932
00:45:03,032 --> 00:45:07,070
This too, I think is a really
great misunderstanding-

933
00:45:07,103 --> 00:45:09,806
people think that God has
the ten commandments and

934
00:45:09,838 --> 00:45:12,308
He has to submit to those
ten commandments...

935
00:45:12,342 --> 00:45:14,778
No, He doesn't!

936
00:45:14,811 --> 00:45:17,748
The ten commandments are
a reflection of who He is

937
00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:19,081
and His nature!

938
00:45:19,114 --> 00:45:20,950
They tell us what God is like,

939
00:45:20,983 --> 00:45:24,086
and that this is what God
expects us to be like!

940
00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:28,791
I have heard evangelists say
this sometimes-wrongly.

941
00:45:28,824 --> 00:45:33,362
They say, "Instead of being just
with you, God was merciful."

942
00:45:33,396 --> 00:45:37,234
But that means that God's mercy
or God's love was unjust!

943
00:45:37,266 --> 00:45:40,269
So there's
a sermon by Stephen Furtick

944
00:45:40,302 --> 00:45:43,472
of Elevation Church, where
he's basically saying

945
00:45:43,505 --> 00:45:48,478
that in order for God
to love us, He had to

946
00:45:48,510 --> 00:45:53,182
ignore His justice,
ignore His own holiness!

947
00:45:53,215 --> 00:45:57,887
Let's say your child
is in a horrible accident.

948
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,091
and on the way to the emergency
room, every sign you see says,

949
00:46:02,125 --> 00:46:05,494
"speed limit."

950
00:46:05,527 --> 00:46:09,865
How much attention do
you pay to the numbers

951
00:46:09,898 --> 00:46:13,135
beneath the speed limit
in that moment?

952
00:46:13,168 --> 00:46:16,338
You would break that speed
limit! You would break the law

953
00:46:16,371 --> 00:46:18,140
for love!

954
00:46:18,173 --> 00:46:22,012
Any parent will break the law
for the sake of love!

955
00:46:22,045 --> 00:46:24,815
And so he
uses this illustration

956
00:46:24,847 --> 00:46:27,150
and applies it to the gospel.

957
00:46:27,182 --> 00:46:29,451
And this is why the
gospel is still good news

958
00:46:29,485 --> 00:46:35,091
in the world today, because God
broke the law for love!

959
00:46:35,123 --> 00:46:37,993
I definitely
don't believe he recognizes the

960
00:46:38,027 --> 00:46:40,297
implications behind
what he's saying.

961
00:46:40,929 --> 00:46:45,201
One thing with his saying that
"God broke the law for love" is

962
00:46:45,235 --> 00:46:47,403
he's calling God a sinner!

963
00:46:47,436 --> 00:46:53,275
I said to every sinner!
God broke the law for love!

964
00:46:53,309 --> 00:46:56,079
He's also saying that

965
00:46:56,112 --> 00:46:57,981
what Jesus said is irrelevant!

966
00:46:58,014 --> 00:47:00,884
Jesus said, "I came to fulfill
the law, and not one

967
00:47:00,916 --> 00:47:03,286
jot or tittle will pass away."

968
00:47:03,318 --> 00:47:07,190
You cannot say that God abandons
justice in favor of love.

969
00:47:07,222 --> 00:47:10,927
So to say that God
broke the law for love

970
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,596
is absolutely absurd!

971
00:47:12,628 --> 00:47:16,132
Love and
justice are inextricably linked.

972
00:47:16,164 --> 00:47:17,601
We could think of a judge-

973
00:47:17,634 --> 00:47:19,568
he says he's a
loving judge and yet

974
00:47:19,601 --> 00:47:22,404
he's presented with a criminal
who's destroyed property and

975
00:47:22,438 --> 00:47:25,342
killed people, and
abused others.

976
00:47:25,375 --> 00:47:28,177
We would say that a judge who
allowed that criminal to walk

977
00:47:28,210 --> 00:47:29,945
because of his "love,"

978
00:47:29,978 --> 00:47:31,614
was actually being
profoundly unloving

979
00:47:31,648 --> 00:47:33,583
to that criminal's victims.

980
00:47:33,615 --> 00:47:38,588
To fail to punish evil,
is an unloving act.

981
00:47:38,621 --> 00:47:41,391
If you're unjust,
you're also unloving.

982
00:47:41,423 --> 00:47:43,893
Those two things are
inextricably linked.

983
00:47:43,927 --> 00:47:48,097
Well, I agree.
In a human society

984
00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:49,531
that's probably right.

985
00:47:49,565 --> 00:47:52,601
But God transcends all
those categories!

986
00:47:52,635 --> 00:47:55,205
Now God may choose to say,

987
00:47:55,237 --> 00:47:58,073
"I'm going to always pair my
love with justice.

988
00:47:58,106 --> 00:47:59,909
Always! These two things-

989
00:47:59,943 --> 00:48:01,544
I'm not going to let
them be separated!"

990
00:48:01,577 --> 00:48:03,647
But if God decided to-

991
00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:07,483
Surely it's within God's power
to say, "It's just love!

992
00:48:07,516 --> 00:48:09,351
We don't need justice anymore!

993
00:48:09,385 --> 00:48:11,121
I'm going to wipe
the slate clean-

994
00:48:11,153 --> 00:48:13,456
I'm going to forgive the sin!
Nobody has to die!"

995
00:48:13,489 --> 00:48:16,525
That is surely within
God's power!

996
00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:18,961
How is God supposed to
love the world,

997
00:48:18,994 --> 00:48:21,063
and then simply shrug His
shoulders at some of the

998
00:48:21,097 --> 00:48:24,134
horrors and injustice that
go on in this world?

999
00:48:24,166 --> 00:48:28,003
How could a God of love not also
be a God of justice?

1000
00:48:28,036 --> 00:48:31,507
I'm saying, God,
if God chose to,

1001
00:48:31,541 --> 00:48:35,412
could have love without justice.
If God chose to.

1002
00:48:35,445 --> 00:48:39,481
The God that would
never judge anyone,

1003
00:48:39,514 --> 00:48:43,652
is not too loving-
He's not loving enough!

1004
00:48:43,686 --> 00:48:46,356
That's a sappy,
sentimental deity!

1005
00:48:46,389 --> 00:48:49,425
That is not the
God of the Bible!

1006
00:48:49,458 --> 00:48:52,394
Well the first thing I'd say
I saw in the movement

1007
00:48:52,427 --> 00:48:55,331
of the Emergent Church when I
was in college was

1008
00:48:55,364 --> 00:48:59,601
not just a misunderstanding of
doctrine or the misunderstanding

1009
00:48:59,635 --> 00:49:03,039
of the attributes of God-is was
a run from it all together!

1010
00:49:03,072 --> 00:49:06,443
To try and actually say,
"This is who God is,

1011
00:49:06,476 --> 00:49:11,347
and this is what He's like,"
was just out of bounds for them!

1012
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:14,016
God gets to do
whatever God wants!

1013
00:49:14,050 --> 00:49:17,988
That's one of my fundamental
commitments to being a theist.

1014
00:49:18,021 --> 00:49:22,592
So one of the things that means
is that God can be arbitrary!

1015
00:49:22,625 --> 00:49:26,061
Then we're left with just the-
We don't really know who God is

1016
00:49:26,094 --> 00:49:28,163
because we can't
actually define Him.

1017
00:49:28,197 --> 00:49:30,066
And we can't turn to scripture
and say, "Okay-

1018
00:49:30,099 --> 00:49:32,402
this is what scripture says
about who God is!"

1019
00:49:32,434 --> 00:49:34,703
I would never use the sentence,

1020
00:49:34,737 --> 00:49:38,474
"God cannot do..."
(fill in the blank)

1021
00:49:38,507 --> 00:49:42,211
"God cannot be..."
(fill in the blank)

1022
00:49:42,244 --> 00:49:44,480
This means we
can't describe God's attributes

1023
00:49:44,514 --> 00:49:46,115
in any way!

1024
00:49:46,148 --> 00:49:48,585
So not only can't we make
negative statements,

1025
00:49:48,617 --> 00:49:52,021
like, "God cannot lie."
"God cannot sin."

1026
00:49:52,054 --> 00:49:54,156
"God cannot be unrighteous."

1027
00:49:54,190 --> 00:49:56,726
But we also wouldn't be able to
make positive statements either-

1028
00:49:56,759 --> 00:49:58,494
so these are the opposites-

1029
00:49:58,527 --> 00:50:02,297
"God is truth." "God is holy."
"God is righteous."

1030
00:50:02,331 --> 00:50:04,534
On like
theological principle,

1031
00:50:04,567 --> 00:50:07,469
I refuse to talk about
God in those ways.

1032
00:50:07,503 --> 00:50:11,274
Because I think that is me
humanizing God,

1033
00:50:11,306 --> 00:50:13,242
anthropomorphizing God.

1034
00:50:13,275 --> 00:50:17,679
If we start to determine that
God is predictable-

1035
00:50:17,713 --> 00:50:20,517
that God is always like this,
or God always does that,

1036
00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:22,152
or God cannot do this.

1037
00:50:22,184 --> 00:50:26,456
God becomes a robot that
we have programmed!

1038
00:50:26,688 --> 00:50:30,527
If God were to change, or if God
were able to change,

1039
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:34,096
why should we trust Him?
Why should we believe the Bible?

1040
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:37,400
Once you start to redefine God
like that you have a different one.

1041
00:50:37,432 --> 00:50:40,670
We're no longer talking
about the same God!

1042
00:50:40,702 --> 00:50:43,472
How are you
going to stand before a holy,

1043
00:50:43,505 --> 00:50:46,708
righteous, and just judge?

1044
00:50:46,742 --> 00:50:49,679
Every one of us has broken
His laws!

1045
00:50:49,711 --> 00:50:52,548
And the reality is,
because He's just,

1046
00:50:52,581 --> 00:50:55,684
the debt must
be paid for our sins!

1047
00:50:55,717 --> 00:50:58,554
They believe in a place
called "hell"

1048
00:50:58,588 --> 00:51:00,290
which is not scriptural!

1049
00:51:00,322 --> 00:51:02,324
We constantly have people
coming up to us to say,

1050
00:51:02,358 --> 00:51:04,193
"You know what? We love to see
that you're out here,

1051
00:51:04,226 --> 00:51:05,795
but we think you're doing
it all wrong!

1052
00:51:05,827 --> 00:51:09,099
You need to be just be
preaching love to everybody!"

1053
00:51:09,132 --> 00:51:11,601
We hell is a lie!
A place that doesn't exist.

1054
00:51:11,634 --> 00:51:15,438
That's the difference between
what I preach and believe,

1055
00:51:15,471 --> 00:51:17,541
and what they preach.

1056
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:21,443
There is a
popular movement underfoot

1057
00:51:21,476 --> 00:51:23,712
to diminish the gravity of hell.

1058
00:51:23,746 --> 00:51:27,617
You know, the idea that
God is wrathful against sin

1059
00:51:27,650 --> 00:51:31,721
and that He literally, really
punishes evil doers.

1060
00:51:31,753 --> 00:51:36,625
One megachurch pastor has
ignited a theological firestorm

1061
00:51:36,659 --> 00:51:39,561
by suggesting that our response
to the Christian message

1062
00:51:39,594 --> 00:51:41,330
in this life,

1063
00:51:41,364 --> 00:51:43,500
will not necessarily determine
our eternal destiny.

1064
00:51:43,532 --> 00:51:45,668
At the time, Rob Bell,

1065
00:51:45,701 --> 00:51:49,239
who was a megachurch pastor
at a church in Michigan,

1066
00:51:49,271 --> 00:51:51,141
had come out with a
book called "Love Wins."

1067
00:51:51,173 --> 00:51:53,775
And it was posing the question:

1068
00:51:53,809 --> 00:51:56,913
"What if our accepted
views on hell-

1069
00:51:56,945 --> 00:52:00,215
what if there are alternate
was of looking at-

1070
00:52:00,248 --> 00:52:01,683
at what hell might be like,

1071
00:52:01,717 --> 00:52:03,653
or what the afterlife
even might look like?"

1072
00:52:03,686 --> 00:52:05,755
So when the book came out,

1073
00:52:05,788 --> 00:52:08,490
I think he had posted
a video, a preview...

1074
00:52:08,523 --> 00:52:13,395
Will only a few
select people make it to heaven?

1075
00:52:13,429 --> 00:52:18,468
And will billions and billions
of people burn forever in hell?

1076
00:52:18,501 --> 00:52:21,304
Yeah, before
I was a Christian, I would have

1077
00:52:21,336 --> 00:52:24,239
considered myself spiritual,
but not religious.

1078
00:52:24,273 --> 00:52:29,412
I really saw God as two
different people in the Bible.

1079
00:52:29,445 --> 00:52:32,215
And it was sort of like, "Old
Testament God is the angry God,

1080
00:52:32,248 --> 00:52:35,251
and New Testament God
is the nice God!"

1081
00:52:35,284 --> 00:52:38,855
And there were a lot of things
in the Bible that I just felt

1082
00:52:38,887 --> 00:52:40,456
were wrong.

1083
00:52:40,489 --> 00:52:42,724
As I read my Bible I

1084
00:52:42,757 --> 00:52:45,394
struggled with the
doctrine of hell.

1085
00:52:45,427 --> 00:52:50,266
That God, who is loving,
could send sinners to hell

1086
00:52:50,298 --> 00:52:51,833
to suffer for eternity!

1087
00:52:51,867 --> 00:52:54,403
I wanted this God who

1088
00:52:54,436 --> 00:52:56,572
would never send
someone to hell!

1089
00:52:56,606 --> 00:52:59,242
I wouldn't do it!
So why would He?

1090
00:52:59,275 --> 00:53:02,211
Had friends who were
of other faiths,

1091
00:53:02,244 --> 00:53:04,913
and knew really good
people who died,

1092
00:53:04,947 --> 00:53:07,349
and my theology said that if
you died without accepting

1093
00:53:07,382 --> 00:53:09,284
Jesus Christ as your personal
Lord and Savior,

1094
00:53:09,318 --> 00:53:12,722
you would burn in hell forever!
Like eternally!

1095
00:53:12,755 --> 00:53:15,258
And millions
of people were taught

1096
00:53:15,291 --> 00:53:18,595
that the primary message, the
center of the gospel of Jesus,

1097
00:53:18,628 --> 00:53:20,630
is that God is going
to send you to hell

1098
00:53:20,663 --> 00:53:22,998
unless you believe in Jesus.

1099
00:53:23,032 --> 00:53:24,901
And I was like...

1100
00:53:24,934 --> 00:53:26,870
"No!"

1101
00:53:27,269 --> 00:53:28,804
I couldn't stomach that!

1102
00:53:28,838 --> 00:53:32,275
You're amending the gospel,
the Christian message,

1103
00:53:32,307 --> 00:53:34,978
so that it's palatable to
contemporary people,

1104
00:53:35,010 --> 00:53:37,646
who find, for example, the idea
of hell and heaven

1105
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:39,514
very difficult to stomach!

1106
00:53:39,547 --> 00:53:42,484
So here comes Rob Bell! He's
made a Christian gospel for you!

1107
00:53:42,518 --> 00:53:44,853
And it's perfectly palatable,
it's much easier to swallow!

1108
00:53:44,887 --> 00:53:46,789
That's what you've done-
haven't you?

1109
00:53:46,822 --> 00:53:50,227
I was really
into this sort of mysticism.

1110
00:53:50,425 --> 00:53:54,730
So then if there were people who
maybe were offering a softer God

1111
00:53:54,764 --> 00:53:57,367
-a God that said, "You know,

1112
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,570
it's not just one way!
It's not just Jesus!"

1113
00:54:00,603 --> 00:54:02,871
One of the mistakes that human
beings make is believing that

1114
00:54:02,905 --> 00:54:04,740
there is only one way.

1115
00:54:04,773 --> 00:54:07,876
"Because all those roads
are going to lead to heaven."

1116
00:54:07,909 --> 00:54:09,678
That's what I thought!

1117
00:54:09,711 --> 00:54:13,750
This creates a basis
for what I'd call

1118
00:54:13,782 --> 00:54:18,721
a "natural religion,"
and a "universal religion."

1119
00:54:18,753 --> 00:54:20,355
Richard Rohr

1120
00:54:20,389 --> 00:54:23,826
is a Franciscan priest who has

1121
00:54:23,858 --> 00:54:26,596
a "Center for Action
and Contemplation"

1122
00:54:26,628 --> 00:54:27,996
in Albuquerque.

1123
00:54:28,030 --> 00:54:29,832
He's one
of the most influential

1124
00:54:29,864 --> 00:54:32,067
spiritual teachers of our
time...

1125
00:54:32,101 --> 00:54:35,672
Richard Rohr is
profoundly influential

1126
00:54:35,704 --> 00:54:38,907
among millennials and in the
progressive Christian church.

1127
00:54:38,940 --> 00:54:41,710
In fact in an article
that came out recently,

1128
00:54:41,744 --> 00:54:44,747
he said that one of his
publishers told him that

1129
00:54:44,780 --> 00:54:47,684
his biggest demographic
is younger Christians.

1130
00:54:47,717 --> 00:54:49,852
And these aren't
necessarily Catholics,

1131
00:54:49,885 --> 00:54:52,789
but these are post-evangelicals-
kids that grew up

1132
00:54:52,822 --> 00:54:54,957
in the evangelical church.

1133
00:54:54,989 --> 00:54:58,560
He's influenced some major
people such as Rob Bell.

1134
00:54:58,594 --> 00:55:01,396
"I can't begin to
tell you what it's like

1135
00:55:01,429 --> 00:55:06,802
to be here. I have been a
Richard Rohr fan for so long."

1136
00:55:06,835 --> 00:55:09,938
He's had a big influence on
progressive Christianity

1137
00:55:09,972 --> 00:55:13,376
with his ideas of universalism.

1138
00:55:13,409 --> 00:55:16,612
His latest book is
"The Universal Christ."

1139
00:55:16,644 --> 00:55:19,382
And then like, you know,
I became a universalist-

1140
00:55:19,414 --> 00:55:21,483
that everybody got saved whether
or not they accepted

1141
00:55:21,516 --> 00:55:23,585
Jesus Christ as their
"personal Lord and savior."

1142
00:55:23,619 --> 00:55:25,822
You see that's no
competitive religion!

1143
00:55:25,855 --> 00:55:27,490
No!

1144
00:55:27,523 --> 00:55:30,393
That's an inclusive-
all inclusive religion!

1145
00:55:30,425 --> 00:55:32,795
That's not the Jesus
most people know!

1146
00:55:32,827 --> 00:55:34,663
Certainly, it's true

1147
00:55:34,697 --> 00:55:36,465
that there have been people
in the history of the church

1148
00:55:36,498 --> 00:55:39,134
who have taught universalism-
that is the doctrine that

1149
00:55:39,168 --> 00:55:42,505
all people, finally,
will be saved.

1150
00:55:42,538 --> 00:55:46,641
That nobody will ultimately end
up in eternal condemnation.

1151
00:55:46,675 --> 00:55:49,512
That's why what
you call "universalism"

1152
00:55:49,545 --> 00:55:52,615
was much more of a common
Christian opinion in the first

1153
00:55:52,648 --> 00:55:54,584
three or four centuries.
You know?

1154
00:55:54,617 --> 00:55:56,952
And then it became
marginalized...

1155
00:55:56,985 --> 00:56:01,123
But it is certainly not the case
that it's the dominant view

1156
00:56:01,157 --> 00:56:06,429
in any epoch of the church
until...

1157
00:56:06,461 --> 00:56:09,532
right now!
Until the modern period.

1158
00:56:09,565 --> 00:56:12,568
It is an
unavoidable conclusion

1159
00:56:12,601 --> 00:56:14,170
from reading scripture

1160
00:56:14,202 --> 00:56:17,706
that Jesus Christ is the
only way that one can be saved-

1161
00:56:17,739 --> 00:56:19,574
that one can be
made right with God.

1162
00:56:19,608 --> 00:56:21,611
And that's why that's been
the consistent teaching

1163
00:56:21,643 --> 00:56:24,012
of the church for
over 2000 years.

1164
00:56:24,045 --> 00:56:26,815
John 3:18 says,

1165
00:56:26,849 --> 00:56:29,652
"Whoever believes in him
is not condemned,

1166
00:56:29,684 --> 00:56:33,556
but whoever does not believe is
condemned already, because he

1167
00:56:33,588 --> 00:56:37,058
has not believed in the name
of the only Son of God."

1168
00:56:37,092 --> 00:56:40,730
You wrote,
"Muslims do not simply have a

1169
00:56:40,762 --> 00:56:43,132
deficient theology,

1170
00:56:43,164 --> 00:56:46,835
they do not know God because
they have rejected Jesus Christ

1171
00:56:46,869 --> 00:56:50,072
His Son, and they stand
condemned."

1172
00:56:50,105 --> 00:56:52,608
And it's that state of
condemnation-being

1173
00:56:52,641 --> 00:56:54,677
under the wrath of God-

1174
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:58,213
that the unbelieving world
hates to hear about.

1175
00:56:58,246 --> 00:57:00,649
Do you
believe that that statement

1176
00:57:00,682 --> 00:57:02,518
is Islamophobic?

1177
00:57:02,550 --> 00:57:04,152
Absolutely not, Senator!

1178
00:57:04,186 --> 00:57:05,688
I'm a Christian...

1179
00:57:05,721 --> 00:57:08,023
Well Christianity is
simultaneously

1180
00:57:08,056 --> 00:57:10,058
inclusive and exclusive.
I mean it's

1181
00:57:10,092 --> 00:57:12,128
inclusive in the sense
that we see here

1182
00:57:12,161 --> 00:57:14,530
in the throne room in heaven,
people from every tribe,

1183
00:57:14,563 --> 00:57:15,998
and language, and tongue,

1184
00:57:16,030 --> 00:57:17,833
coming to Christ,
embracing Christ!

1185
00:57:17,867 --> 00:57:19,802
And we see it's inclusive in
the sense that it doesn't

1186
00:57:19,835 --> 00:57:22,605
require works. I am simply
saved by faith in Christ!

1187
00:57:22,637 --> 00:57:24,606
It's not about performing, it's
not just 'good people, '

1188
00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:26,675
it's just anyone who
receives Jesus Christ!

1189
00:57:26,708 --> 00:57:30,612
But it's exclusive in that
it's just Jesus.

1190
00:57:30,646 --> 00:57:33,548
It's just Jesus!
But that's Christianity!

1191
00:57:33,581 --> 00:57:38,019
The modern sort of secular view
of religious pluralism, that-

1192
00:57:38,052 --> 00:57:41,089
that is the ultimate blasphemy!
That you can't say that,

1193
00:57:41,123 --> 00:57:43,793
because there are other people
that believe differently.

1194
00:57:43,826 --> 00:57:45,961
Do you believe
that people in the Muslim

1195
00:57:45,994 --> 00:57:48,697
religion stand condemned?
Is that your view?

1196
00:57:48,731 --> 00:57:50,700
Again Senator,
I'm a Christian...

1197
00:57:50,733 --> 00:57:52,802
We see a
perfect example of this actually

1198
00:57:52,835 --> 00:57:56,606
in Bernie Sanders-was
interviewing a nominee

1199
00:57:56,639 --> 00:57:58,641
for a political office,

1200
00:57:58,673 --> 00:58:01,811
and essentially put him through
a religious test for that office.

1201
00:58:01,844 --> 00:58:02,979
Do you
think that's respectful

1202
00:58:03,012 --> 00:58:04,514
of other religions?

1203
00:58:04,547 --> 00:58:06,949
Senator,
I wrote a post

1204
00:58:06,981 --> 00:58:10,552
based on being a Christian and
attending a Christian school,

1205
00:58:10,585 --> 00:58:12,654
that has a statement of faith,

1206
00:58:12,688 --> 00:58:14,990
that speaks clearly with regard

1207
00:58:15,023 --> 00:58:17,659
to the centrality of
Jesus Christ in salvation.

1208
00:58:17,693 --> 00:58:20,096
And Bernie said that because
there are Muslims who

1209
00:58:20,128 --> 00:58:21,963
don't believe this,

1210
00:58:21,996 --> 00:58:24,599
and based on Christian teaching
are "condemned" by God-

1211
00:58:24,632 --> 00:58:27,068
under the wrath of God
without Christ-

1212
00:58:27,101 --> 00:58:29,938
he equated that
with this nominee

1213
00:58:29,972 --> 00:58:32,608
believing something
inherently immoral!

1214
00:58:32,641 --> 00:58:35,244
I would
simply say, Mr. Chairman that

1215
00:58:35,277 --> 00:58:39,916
this nominee...
is really not someone

1216
00:58:40,782 --> 00:58:44,052
who is what this country
is supposed to be about.

1217
00:58:44,085 --> 00:58:45,921
I will vote no!

1218
00:58:45,954 --> 00:58:47,590
As if this
traditional Christian belief

1219
00:58:47,623 --> 00:58:49,592
was so wrong,
that it would be-

1220
00:58:49,625 --> 00:58:51,661
he'd be unable to
fulfill the duties

1221
00:58:51,693 --> 00:58:53,663
required of him in office.

1222
00:58:53,695 --> 00:58:56,699
And that's not something I'd
thought I'd see in my lifetime!

1223
00:58:56,731 --> 00:58:58,934
As far the
exclusivity of Christianity-

1224
00:58:58,967 --> 00:59:01,636
I have no idea because

1225
00:59:01,670 --> 00:59:05,641
I have seen so much beauty and
truth in so many other places.

1226
00:59:05,673 --> 00:59:08,311
You know, if people want
to call me "liberal," I-

1227
00:59:08,344 --> 00:59:10,079
I guess that's okay.

1228
00:59:10,112 --> 00:59:12,648
It's only from
their perspective.

1229
00:59:12,681 --> 00:59:15,284
If they really knew
the perennial tradition...

1230
00:59:15,317 --> 00:59:20,623
Richard Rohr
also says he's a perennialist.

1231
00:59:20,655 --> 00:59:26,762
And perennialism is the belief
that there is one divine reality

1232
00:59:26,795 --> 00:59:29,065
that unites all religions.

1233
00:59:29,097 --> 00:59:32,867
Externally, they appear
different and they-

1234
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:34,736
they're practiced differently,

1235
00:59:34,769 --> 00:59:37,606
and they may have different
doctrines, but those are all

1236
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:39,375
only externally factors.

1237
00:59:39,407 --> 00:59:43,679
There's actually a core, divine
truth that unites all of them.

1238
00:59:43,711 --> 00:59:46,315
One word for it
is "Christ."

1239
00:59:46,347 --> 00:59:48,284
One word for it,
is "Christ."

1240
00:59:48,317 --> 00:59:51,052
This of
course erases the distinction

1241
00:59:51,085 --> 00:59:53,989
of Christianity from any
other religion and

1242
00:59:54,023 --> 00:59:56,158
makes it just one of many.

1243
00:59:56,190 --> 00:59:59,127
And there are
such stark differences

1244
00:59:59,161 --> 01:00:03,398
between what certain religions
teach about some very big things!

1245
01:00:03,431 --> 01:00:05,967
And the
cross is what overshadows

1246
01:00:06,001 --> 01:00:09,672
all the other religions, and
as scripture says that

1247
01:00:09,704 --> 01:00:12,174
is the stumbling block for many!

1248
01:00:12,373 --> 01:00:14,009
If we're worried
about being right,

1249
01:00:14,043 --> 01:00:16,178
then no, they
can't all be right!

1250
01:00:16,210 --> 01:00:19,280
But I'm not sure that that's
necessarily the question

1251
01:00:19,313 --> 01:00:21,349
that we're supposed
to be asking.

1252
01:00:21,382 --> 01:00:24,886
That's not an important
question to me anyway right now.

1253
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:26,722
I know that this is where I am-

1254
01:00:26,755 --> 01:00:29,057
I find myself in
the Christian tradition.

1255
01:00:29,090 --> 01:00:30,759
I'm into Jesus!

1256
01:00:30,793 --> 01:00:32,728
And I think Christ is
even bigger than Jesus!

1257
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,965
Well how could anything be
bigger than Jesus?

1258
01:00:35,998 --> 01:00:38,134
(At least for a Christian)

1259
01:00:38,166 --> 01:00:40,702
Well there is,
and that's Christ!

1260
01:00:40,735 --> 01:00:43,338
Richard Rohr
makes a distinction

1261
01:00:43,371 --> 01:00:45,875
between the historical Jesus,

1262
01:00:45,907 --> 01:00:49,110
and what He calls the "Cosmic"
or "Universal Christ."

1263
01:00:49,143 --> 01:00:50,745
And you say,
there are two different

1264
01:00:50,778 --> 01:00:53,181
realities-
Jesus as the historical figure,

1265
01:00:53,215 --> 01:00:55,084
Christ as the cosmic figure-
which we've been

1266
01:00:55,117 --> 01:00:56,719
talking about it...

1267
01:00:56,751 --> 01:00:59,087
He divides Jesus and Christ
because he thinks

1268
01:00:59,121 --> 01:01:01,891
"Christ is bigger than Jesus."

1269
01:01:01,923 --> 01:01:03,893
I know people
may start to tense up

1270
01:01:03,925 --> 01:01:06,828
when they hear someone trying
to redefine Jesus for them.

1271
01:01:06,862 --> 01:01:07,797
You know?

1272
01:01:09,465 --> 01:01:10,199
One of
Richard Rohr's favorite things

1273
01:01:10,231 --> 01:01:11,701
to say is,

1274
01:01:11,733 --> 01:01:14,069
"Christ is not
Jesus' last name."

1275
01:01:14,103 --> 01:01:17,273
"Christ" is not
Jesus' last name! Alright?

1276
01:01:17,306 --> 01:01:19,240
Jesus became the Christ!

1277
01:01:19,273 --> 01:01:21,277
Christ is
not Jesus' last name.

1278
01:01:21,309 --> 01:01:23,478
And that's
a surprise to most Christians!

1279
01:01:23,512 --> 01:01:26,749
I think that's a strawman
because really

1280
01:01:26,782 --> 01:01:29,318
I don't know any
Christian who thinks

1281
01:01:29,351 --> 01:01:31,753
Christ is Jesus' last name!

1282
01:01:31,786 --> 01:01:35,824
I think most Christians who
know anything about the Bible

1283
01:01:35,858 --> 01:01:40,863
know that Christ is the Greek,
for the Jewish word "Messiah,"

1284
01:01:40,896 --> 01:01:43,065
which means "the anointed one."

1285
01:01:43,097 --> 01:01:47,369
So of course Jesus is "Christ"
because Jesus is the Messiah.

1286
01:01:47,402 --> 01:01:50,840
But what Richard Rohr
says is that the

1287
01:01:50,873 --> 01:01:53,976
first incarnation of Christ

1288
01:01:54,009 --> 01:01:55,411
is creation.

1289
01:01:55,443 --> 01:01:58,913
The big bang is the
birth of the "Christ"

1290
01:01:58,947 --> 01:02:02,218
14.5 billion years ago.

1291
01:02:02,251 --> 01:02:06,255
I have a
background in the New Age.

1292
01:02:06,288 --> 01:02:10,893
I was in there very many years.
I was involved in

1293
01:02:10,925 --> 01:02:13,094
Eastern belief systems-

1294
01:02:13,128 --> 01:02:16,465
first Hinduism, and then
Tibetan Buddhism for a while.

1295
01:02:16,498 --> 01:02:19,235
I was very interested
in astrology,

1296
01:02:19,268 --> 01:02:23,038
and eventually became
a professional astrologer.

1297
01:02:23,070 --> 01:02:25,875
Until I encountered
the true Christ,

1298
01:02:25,907 --> 01:02:30,045
and became a Christian
at that point.

1299
01:02:30,077 --> 01:02:36,451
I have been very alarmed to see
that in progressive Christianity

1300
01:02:36,485 --> 01:02:39,756
there are influences
from the New Age.

1301
01:02:39,954 --> 01:02:43,525
"Panentheism" is one of them,
which is one of

1302
01:02:43,559 --> 01:02:46,228
Richard Rohr's key teachings.

1303
01:02:46,260 --> 01:02:48,396
We're not "pantheists."

1304
01:02:48,429 --> 01:02:52,268
Authentic Christianity is
"panentheism!"

1305
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:54,269
Theism,

1306
01:02:54,302 --> 01:02:56,404
and what I would call
"Christian Theism,"

1307
01:02:56,438 --> 01:02:58,941
is God as creator

1308
01:02:58,974 --> 01:03:02,378
who created the universe
out of nothing,

1309
01:03:02,411 --> 01:03:04,947
and is distinct
from His creation.

1310
01:03:04,980 --> 01:03:06,849
He's omnipresent,

1311
01:03:06,882 --> 01:03:10,253
because God can't be
contained in any one location.

1312
01:03:10,485 --> 01:03:14,523
But He remains distinct
from His creation.

1313
01:03:14,556 --> 01:03:18,460
Whereas pantheism is like the
opposite of that.

1314
01:03:18,492 --> 01:03:24,432
Pantheism is God and creation
are one and the same.

1315
01:03:24,465 --> 01:03:28,203
So the leaves are God,
the rocks are God,

1316
01:03:28,237 --> 01:03:31,206
and it just becomes
identical with creation.

1317
01:03:31,239 --> 01:03:34,075
"Panentheism"

1318
01:03:34,108 --> 01:03:39,447
is God is in creation,
and creation is in God,

1319
01:03:39,481 --> 01:03:42,318
but God also
transcends creation.

1320
01:03:42,351 --> 01:03:43,986
There's one God,

1321
01:03:44,018 --> 01:03:45,920
- who created all things!
- Yes.

1322
01:03:45,954 --> 01:03:49,091
Then everything
has to carry the divine DNA!

1323
01:03:49,123 --> 01:03:52,327
And so in Rohr's view,
you look at someone else

1324
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:54,295
and you see Christ.

1325
01:03:54,329 --> 01:03:59,335
That makes every single one of
us have this inherent divinity-

1326
01:03:59,367 --> 01:04:01,936
this shared god-like nature.

1327
01:04:01,969 --> 01:04:05,875
So what Rohr is saying is that
"Christ" is another name

1328
01:04:05,907 --> 01:04:07,342
for every thing.

1329
01:04:07,376 --> 01:04:08,611
Don't think
of it first of all

1330
01:04:08,643 --> 01:04:10,912
as a religious concept.

1331
01:04:10,945 --> 01:04:14,482
think of it as a descriptor
for everything-

1332
01:04:14,516 --> 01:04:16,885
everything at least
that we can see.

1333
01:04:16,918 --> 01:04:19,922
Rob Bell has a
very similar view.

1334
01:04:19,954 --> 01:04:22,190
Rob Bell says
"everything is spiritual".

1335
01:04:22,224 --> 01:04:26,495
Welcome to
Everything is Spiritual!

1336
01:04:26,527 --> 01:04:30,298
He even did a seminar,
or a series of workshops with

1337
01:04:30,331 --> 01:04:32,233
Deepok Chopra,

1338
01:04:32,266 --> 01:04:34,903
who's probably one
of the foremost,

1339
01:04:34,936 --> 01:04:37,338
and richest New Agers around!

1340
01:04:37,371 --> 01:04:39,942
Advertising their course
as learning

1341
01:04:39,974 --> 01:04:42,543
how you're an expression
of the divine

1342
01:04:42,577 --> 01:04:44,947
Whereas,
the Bible teaches that we are

1343
01:04:44,980 --> 01:04:47,650
hopelessly lost
until Christ saves us.

1344
01:04:47,682 --> 01:04:51,387
Not containing this part of God
already inside of us-

1345
01:04:51,420 --> 01:04:53,122
this divine nature.

1346
01:04:53,155 --> 01:04:56,625
I think of Genesis 3:5 when
the serpent says to Eve,

1347
01:04:56,657 --> 01:04:58,993
"you shall be like God..."

1348
01:04:59,027 --> 01:05:01,931
and so when that bleeds over
into the gospel

1349
01:05:01,963 --> 01:05:03,532
it doesn't just
distort the gospel,

1350
01:05:03,565 --> 01:05:05,634
it obliterates the gospel!

1351
01:05:05,666 --> 01:05:09,538
Because of
Rohr's view on Panentheism,

1352
01:05:09,570 --> 01:05:13,007
and that creation is the first
incarnation of Christ,

1353
01:05:13,041 --> 01:05:16,278
everybody and every thing,
is in Christ.

1354
01:05:16,311 --> 01:05:19,148
He is the flesh
and blood embodiment

1355
01:05:19,181 --> 01:05:23,117
of something far larger
and more... cosmic.

1356
01:05:23,150 --> 01:05:26,654
And Rob Bell has talked
about Christ as being "cosmic",

1357
01:05:26,688 --> 01:05:30,592
and being a-
an energy, a divine energy

1358
01:05:30,625 --> 01:05:33,528
in the universe that
people stumble over.

1359
01:05:33,561 --> 01:05:37,298
People may be stumbling upon
this mystery hidden in every

1360
01:05:37,331 --> 01:05:41,170
inch of creation all the time,
and not knowing,

1361
01:05:41,202 --> 01:05:43,137
or having a name for it.

1362
01:05:43,170 --> 01:05:46,474
His influence is just profound,
recently Jen Hatmaker had

1363
01:05:46,507 --> 01:05:48,743
Richard Rohr on her podcast,
and she

1364
01:05:48,777 --> 01:05:51,713
referred to him as
"a spiritual father".

1365
01:05:51,746 --> 01:05:56,150
I along with just
thousands and thousnads of

1366
01:05:56,184 --> 01:05:57,586
my listeners,

1367
01:05:57,619 --> 01:06:01,690
um, have learned from you
for so many years.

1368
01:06:01,722 --> 01:06:04,659
We consider you a
spiritual father.

1369
01:06:04,693 --> 01:06:08,063
He's also
influenced I know-Brian McLaren.

1370
01:06:08,096 --> 01:06:10,599
And he's influenced
the Nazarene Church-

1371
01:06:10,632 --> 01:06:15,204
he was a speaker at the
2017 Young Clergy Conference

1372
01:06:15,237 --> 01:06:17,206
of the Nazarene Church.

1373
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:20,041
He's been a
guest on the Liturgists podcast,

1374
01:06:20,074 --> 01:06:24,212
on The Deconstructionists
Podcast and has influenced them.

1375
01:06:24,246 --> 01:06:27,282
For us to say that Christ
doesn't continue to work,

1376
01:06:27,315 --> 01:06:29,585
or manifest in ways-

1377
01:06:29,617 --> 01:06:32,453
outside of our
Christian community,

1378
01:06:32,487 --> 01:06:36,291
is not a position or an
assumption I'm ready to make.

1379
01:06:36,324 --> 01:06:39,061
So there's no need for anybody

1380
01:06:39,094 --> 01:06:42,231
to have any kind
of faith in Jesus,

1381
01:06:42,264 --> 01:06:44,767
because we're already
"in Christ".

1382
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,202
When people say like, Jesus is
the way, the truth and the life,

1383
01:06:48,235 --> 01:06:50,705
or Jesus is the-you know-
enter through the narrow gate,

1384
01:06:50,739 --> 01:06:53,541
they are assuming

1385
01:06:53,574 --> 01:06:55,476
their own interpretation

1386
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:58,414
of what those statements
are actually referring to.

1387
01:06:58,447 --> 01:07:01,784
It says,
"Jesus said to him"

1388
01:07:01,817 --> 01:07:03,351
(to Thomas)

1389
01:07:03,385 --> 01:07:06,255
'I am the way, the truth,
and the life;

1390
01:07:06,288 --> 01:07:09,791
no one comes to the Father
but through Me.'"

1391
01:07:09,824 --> 01:07:14,062
Now this would be problematic
for Richard Rohr,

1392
01:07:14,096 --> 01:07:16,731
normally, except that he says,

1393
01:07:16,764 --> 01:07:20,601
that Jesus is talking as the
"Universal Christ" here.

1394
01:07:20,635 --> 01:07:23,138
And the reason we have so
misused,

1395
01:07:23,170 --> 01:07:25,139
and misnterpreted John's gospel,

1396
01:07:25,172 --> 01:07:28,676
is this is the eternal,
archetypal Christ talking.

1397
01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:33,414
He can say, "I am the way, and
the truth, and the life..."

1398
01:07:33,447 --> 01:07:35,283
But He's not
talking about Jesus-

1399
01:07:35,317 --> 01:07:37,619
he's talking about this mystery,
this amalgam

1400
01:07:37,652 --> 01:07:41,824
of matter and spirit, which
is the way for everybody!

1401
01:07:41,856 --> 01:07:45,793
His view of Jesus as "Savior"
is non-existent.

1402
01:07:45,827 --> 01:07:50,632
Jesus is not a savior, because
we don't need salvation.

1403
01:07:50,664 --> 01:07:53,568
We don't need to be reconciled.

1404
01:07:53,601 --> 01:07:56,571
Another word
that-interstingly this gets

1405
01:07:56,605 --> 01:07:59,240
redefined not just in
progressive Christianity

1406
01:07:59,273 --> 01:08:02,610
but also in the New Age
movement, and that's the word

1407
01:08:02,643 --> 01:08:04,278
"atonement".

1408
01:08:04,311 --> 01:08:07,482
Richard Rohr has said
"atonement" is really,

1409
01:08:07,516 --> 01:08:10,184
"at-one-ment"

1410
01:08:10,217 --> 01:08:13,721
and that it really means that
we're "at one" with God.

1411
01:08:13,755 --> 01:08:17,326
We called it
"at-one-ment"

1412
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:18,861
instead of atonement-

1413
01:08:18,894 --> 01:08:21,195
there was no "bill to be paid"

1414
01:08:21,229 --> 01:08:25,266
there was simply
"a union to be named".

1415
01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:28,537
An "at-one-ment" if you
want to play with that word.

1416
01:08:28,569 --> 01:08:31,739
Again, Richard Rohr, other
progressives and New Agers,

1417
01:08:31,773 --> 01:08:34,476
and even some conservative
theologians will use

1418
01:08:34,509 --> 01:08:37,311
the English etymology of
the word atonement,

1419
01:08:37,345 --> 01:08:40,182
which is "at-one-ment",
so that's where we get the

1420
01:08:40,215 --> 01:08:42,184
English word, "atonement".

1421
01:08:42,216 --> 01:08:45,720
And they will build their
theology of atonement based on

1422
01:08:45,753 --> 01:08:47,523
the English word.

1423
01:08:47,555 --> 01:08:51,259
Whereas the Hebrew word,
which is "kaphar",

1424
01:08:51,292 --> 01:08:54,429
really means "to cover"
or "to propitiate".

1425
01:08:54,462 --> 01:08:58,233
And so, the English word has
more of a connotation of unity

1426
01:08:58,265 --> 01:09:01,202
and reconciliation-
and certainly that idea of

1427
01:09:01,235 --> 01:09:05,541
reconciliation is present in the
biblical idea of atonement.

1428
01:09:05,573 --> 01:09:07,775
But "to cover" and
"to propitiate",

1429
01:09:07,809 --> 01:09:11,380
it has to do with the penal
substitution of Jesus-

1430
01:09:11,412 --> 01:09:14,615
Him taking the wrath of God
upon Himself.

1431
01:09:14,649 --> 01:09:17,886
And making that atonement for
those who would put their

1432
01:09:17,918 --> 01:09:19,520
trust in Him.

1433
01:09:19,554 --> 01:09:21,623
So our atonement theory-

1434
01:09:21,655 --> 01:09:24,525
the Franciscan minority position

1435
01:09:24,559 --> 01:09:28,896
is basically saying,
'no atonement is necessary'.

1436
01:09:28,930 --> 01:09:30,532
I'm way more prone

1437
01:09:30,564 --> 01:09:32,634
to believe in a God that
redeems everyone,

1438
01:09:32,667 --> 01:09:34,937
and a God that actually wins
in the end,

1439
01:09:34,970 --> 01:09:37,506
not be destroying His enemies,
but by redeeming them,

1440
01:09:37,538 --> 01:09:39,273
and by fixing them,
and by healing them.

1441
01:09:39,306 --> 01:09:41,676
I don't know how God's
going to work that out,

1442
01:09:41,710 --> 01:09:43,244
and I do know there's-

1443
01:09:43,278 --> 01:09:45,814
there's a lot of evidence
to the contrary!

1444
01:09:45,846 --> 01:09:50,518
But I've got to believe that
what it means to God

1445
01:09:50,551 --> 01:09:53,454
is to be victorious and win!

1446
01:09:53,488 --> 01:09:56,291
I think that we can all agree,
God wins!

1447
01:09:56,323 --> 01:09:58,693
But trying to say that God
"winning" means

1448
01:09:58,726 --> 01:10:01,229
everyone will be saved
in the end, because

1449
01:10:01,262 --> 01:10:02,930
judgement is somehow
God "losing",

1450
01:10:02,963 --> 01:10:05,266
it just completely is
refuted by scripture;

1451
01:10:05,300 --> 01:10:07,735
constantly when God judges in
the scripture, this is seen as

1452
01:10:07,769 --> 01:10:10,405
God's victory over the
people He's judging.

1453
01:10:10,438 --> 01:10:13,742
And so in Christ we see one of
two victories is going to happen-

1454
01:10:13,774 --> 01:10:16,510
the victory of me
sharing in His victory,

1455
01:10:16,543 --> 01:10:18,579
and I get saved,
and I get redeemed,

1456
01:10:18,613 --> 01:10:21,682
or I rebell against it,
and the victory God has finally

1457
01:10:21,716 --> 01:10:24,686
over us all in the end
with judgement.

1458
01:10:24,719 --> 01:10:27,989
If God is victorious, then
God is victorious!

1459
01:10:28,023 --> 01:10:29,824
God doesn't lose!

1460
01:10:29,858 --> 01:10:32,293
That's what it means to be God!

1461
01:10:32,327 --> 01:10:35,530
So God's not
losing when He judges-

1462
01:10:35,563 --> 01:10:37,632
that's part of His winning.

1463
01:10:37,666 --> 01:10:40,302
The greatest
proponent, probably,

1464
01:10:40,335 --> 01:10:44,573
in the ancient church of
universal salvation is Origen.

1465
01:10:44,605 --> 01:10:49,344
And he was deeply influenced
by Middle Platonism, and

1466
01:10:49,377 --> 01:10:52,648
came to articulate

1467
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:56,518
a doctrine-as far as we can
tell-of universal salvation.

1468
01:10:56,551 --> 01:11:00,021
And Origen was, or course,
condemned in the 6th century,

1469
01:11:00,055 --> 01:11:02,557
universalism was condemned
in the church.

1470
01:11:02,590 --> 01:11:06,427
Scripture does not give us
an escape hatch

1471
01:11:06,461 --> 01:11:07,963
that would allow us
to believe that-

1472
01:11:07,996 --> 01:11:11,632
anyone who is a universalist
is not a Bible believer!

1473
01:11:11,666 --> 01:11:15,503
Scripture is just too clear
on that subject-

1474
01:11:15,537 --> 01:11:17,306
there will be people
who perish.

1475
01:11:17,338 --> 01:11:20,942
There will be many people,
Jesus said, who perish.

1476
01:11:20,975 --> 01:11:22,944
That was a big moment for me-
I was like,

1477
01:11:22,976 --> 01:11:26,547
"Oh! So like Bart, you won't
worship any god-

1478
01:11:26,581 --> 01:11:29,484
like you have standards
for your god.

1479
01:11:29,516 --> 01:11:31,420
And actually, my friends who
don't believe in God,

1480
01:11:31,453 --> 01:11:32,954
when we talk about the God
that they don't believe in,

1481
01:11:32,987 --> 01:11:35,390
I don't believe in
that God either!

1482
01:11:35,422 --> 01:11:38,859
And when Russell wanted
to go to church-

1483
01:11:38,893 --> 01:11:40,729
that's what made me angry!

1484
01:11:40,761 --> 01:11:44,765
I didn't want to let go of
all that I've created!

1485
01:11:44,798 --> 01:11:48,936
You know, this sort of
Zen-Buddah-Jesus-

1486
01:11:48,970 --> 01:11:50,806
I don't know what religion!

1487
01:11:50,838 --> 01:11:52,873
Like I really don't understand

1488
01:11:52,907 --> 01:11:56,078
when people like pay all the
price to believe in stuff

1489
01:11:56,110 --> 01:11:58,546
that they know, like it's a
total leap of faith-

1490
01:11:58,579 --> 01:12:00,748
like they're just struggling-
like, "Ah! I'm gonna do it!"

1491
01:12:00,782 --> 01:12:03,652
And then they leap to a God,

1492
01:12:03,685 --> 01:12:05,721
who doesn't even
save Mahatma Gandhi!

1493
01:12:05,753 --> 01:12:08,724
Gandhi's in hell?
He is?

1494
01:12:08,756 --> 01:12:10,791
And someone knows this
for sure,

1495
01:12:10,824 --> 01:12:13,627
and felt the needs to let the
rest of us know?

1496
01:12:13,661 --> 01:12:15,963
Like, why would you want
to worship a god,

1497
01:12:15,997 --> 01:12:18,600
if you could imagine
a better god?

1498
01:12:18,632 --> 01:12:20,902
That's what I don't understand
like-if you could imagine a god

1499
01:12:20,935 --> 01:12:24,439
that's better than the one that
you worship-trade up!

1500
01:12:24,471 --> 01:12:27,475
It was really just about me
taking God

1501
01:12:27,509 --> 01:12:30,779
and making Him like myself.

1502
01:12:30,811 --> 01:12:34,983
And I had no idea
what holiness meant.

1503
01:12:35,015 --> 01:12:38,953
It comes back to idolatry.
Idolatry was the sin of Israel.

1504
01:12:38,987 --> 01:12:41,623
If you read The Old Testament,
they continually went

1505
01:12:41,655 --> 01:12:44,158
back to idolatry! You say,
what a dumb nation!

1506
01:12:44,192 --> 01:12:45,993
We're exactly the same!

1507
01:12:46,027 --> 01:12:47,962
We don't bow to a
God made with our hands,

1508
01:12:47,996 --> 01:12:50,465
we bow to a God made
with our mind.

1509
01:12:50,497 --> 01:12:52,500
You know, I hang around
with a lot of Christian people

1510
01:12:52,533 --> 01:12:55,002
and they're like, Who are you
to tell God who to be?

1511
01:12:55,036 --> 01:12:56,805
And I'm like, I'm not
telling God who to be!

1512
01:12:56,837 --> 01:12:59,006
I'm just telling you who I'll
worship and who I won't!

1513
01:12:59,039 --> 01:13:01,609
"You don't want to burn, do ya?"

1514
01:13:01,643 --> 01:13:03,744
Which like if that's the
best message you have,

1515
01:13:03,778 --> 01:13:05,680
that's just a crap message!

1516
01:13:05,712 --> 01:13:07,983
If Hell didn't exist, neither
with this ministry. Seriously.

1517
01:13:08,015 --> 01:13:09,984
I would be surfing.
I would have long hair.

1518
01:13:10,018 --> 01:13:11,953
Probably moved up to
somewhere in Australia,

1519
01:13:11,985 --> 01:13:14,756
dangling my feet as shark bait,
just living for myself-

1520
01:13:14,788 --> 01:13:16,123
but I can't!

1521
01:13:16,157 --> 01:13:18,527
If we love God,
we would obey Him!

1522
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:20,963
If we love people,
we would warn them!

1523
01:13:21,595 --> 01:13:23,898
How much do you
have to hate somebody

1524
01:13:23,931 --> 01:13:26,100
to not prosthelytize?

1525
01:13:26,134 --> 01:13:28,703
How much do you have to hate
somebody to to believe that

1526
01:13:28,735 --> 01:13:32,440
everlasting life is possible,
and not tell them that?

1527
01:13:32,474 --> 01:13:34,976
Scripture doesn't leave us
any room whatsoever

1528
01:13:35,009 --> 01:13:38,779
to be universalists
or annihilationists.

1529
01:13:38,813 --> 01:13:43,551
And if you're bad,
what happens if there's no hell?

1530
01:13:43,585 --> 01:13:45,854
Do just get annihilated?
Is that-

1531
01:13:45,886 --> 01:13:47,788
- Pretty much.
- Yeah.

1532
01:13:47,822 --> 01:13:49,224
And that's what
the Baptists have against the

1533
01:13:49,256 --> 01:13:51,859
- Seventh-day Adventists.
- Yeah.

1534
01:13:52,493 --> 01:13:54,195
Jesus told that story about

1535
01:13:54,229 --> 01:13:55,963
the rich man and Lazarus.

1536
01:13:55,997 --> 01:13:59,034
So here's a man
who died in unbelief

1537
01:13:59,067 --> 01:14:02,770
and in the afterlife,
he is being punished.

1538
01:14:02,804 --> 01:14:05,172
He's conscious.
He can talk.

1539
01:14:05,206 --> 01:14:09,010
He wants to send someone
back to warn his brothers

1540
01:14:09,042 --> 01:14:10,911
not to come to this place!

1541
01:14:10,944 --> 01:14:14,682
That's how Jesus pictured the
afterlife! And you can't

1542
01:14:14,716 --> 01:14:17,953
believe what Jesus said and then
turn around and say, "Yeah, but

1543
01:14:17,985 --> 01:14:22,090
I believe that the wicked
dead will perish.

1544
01:14:22,122 --> 01:14:25,593
If they're bad,
they just getting annihilated,

1545
01:14:25,627 --> 01:14:27,095
so they don't ever
have to suffer again.

1546
01:14:27,127 --> 01:14:28,729
- Right!
- Yeah.

1547
01:14:28,762 --> 01:14:32,033
It is emotionally,

1548
01:14:32,065 --> 01:14:35,737
existentially difficult

1549
01:14:35,770 --> 01:14:39,807
to wrap your head and heart
around the idea of

1550
01:14:39,841 --> 01:14:42,811
eternal conscious punishment.

1551
01:14:42,844 --> 01:14:44,945
If there's any
other way to get around

1552
01:14:44,979 --> 01:14:48,083
a fiery, eternal pit...

1553
01:14:48,115 --> 01:14:51,051
why would we not be
open to that idea?

1554
01:14:51,085 --> 01:14:52,654
It's not something I don't
think I would wish

1555
01:14:52,686 --> 01:14:54,288
on my worst enemy!

1556
01:14:54,322 --> 01:14:57,559
It's really hard to think about!
I don't know any Christian

1557
01:14:57,591 --> 01:15:02,229
who loves the idea of the people
we know and love in this life

1558
01:15:02,262 --> 01:15:05,833
who don't put their
trust in Jesus

1559
01:15:05,867 --> 01:15:09,271
experiencing some kind of
eternal conscious torment.

1560
01:15:09,304 --> 01:15:13,108
I don't think anybody
thinks that's great!

1561
01:15:13,140 --> 01:15:16,143
You know, if I were God,
I would-

1562
01:15:16,176 --> 01:15:19,146
I don't know if I'd do it
that way! But I'm not God!

1563
01:15:19,180 --> 01:15:21,883
God's wisdom is
so much higher than ours!

1564
01:15:21,916 --> 01:15:26,521
His justice is perfect!
Our justice is radically broken!

1565
01:15:30,091 --> 01:15:32,127
So, we have the
Pope saying atheists

1566
01:15:32,159 --> 01:15:34,095
can go to heaven, and this
mullah saying

1567
01:15:34,127 --> 01:15:35,896
you can go to hell
for using Twitter!

1568
01:15:35,930 --> 01:15:37,999
We really need someone to clear
this up! And fortunately

1569
01:15:38,032 --> 01:15:40,802
we were able to contact someone
who is an authority on this

1570
01:15:40,835 --> 01:15:42,671
sort of thing, and he made
this tape for us...

1571
01:15:42,703 --> 01:15:45,105
So, one time, I saw
this video on Jimmy Kimmel,

1572
01:15:45,139 --> 01:15:47,976
where a guy
was dressed up as Satan,

1573
01:15:48,009 --> 01:15:50,110
and started to talk about
what hell was like

1574
01:15:50,144 --> 01:15:51,846
and why people would go to hell.

1575
01:15:51,878 --> 01:15:53,582
Additionally,
you will not suffer

1576
01:15:53,614 --> 01:15:54,882
the bitter flames of eternal
damnation for stuff like

1577
01:15:54,916 --> 01:15:56,784
swearing,
telling little white lies,

1578
01:15:56,818 --> 01:15:59,186
havin inappropriate fantasies,
homosexuality,

1579
01:15:59,220 --> 01:16:02,923
or consensual sex of any kind
between adults!

1580
01:16:02,957 --> 01:16:05,160
And he's probably
expressing a lot of the same

1581
01:16:05,193 --> 01:16:07,162
views that most
Americans would express.

1582
01:16:07,194 --> 01:16:09,029
Do you honestly
think God is gonna hand out

1583
01:16:09,063 --> 01:16:11,733
the same punishment for mass
murder than he does for sexting?

1584
01:16:11,765 --> 01:16:13,734
He's saying basically that

1585
01:16:13,768 --> 01:16:15,170
the only way you're going to go
to hell is if you kill someone.

1586
01:16:15,203 --> 01:16:17,205
If you meet me in the afterlife,

1587
01:16:17,238 --> 01:16:19,207
and you're confused as to why,

1588
01:16:19,239 --> 01:16:21,342
it's because of
the guy you killed...

1589
01:16:21,376 --> 01:16:23,645
The thing that
he's doing in that show

1590
01:16:23,677 --> 01:16:25,814
is he's actually taking
the place of God.

1591
01:16:25,846 --> 01:16:29,783
This is why people go to hell.

1592
01:16:29,817 --> 01:16:31,653
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

1593
01:16:31,953 --> 01:16:33,255
Based on what?

1594
01:16:33,787 --> 01:16:35,122
Based on his own judgment,
right?

1595
01:16:35,155 --> 01:16:36,925
Based on what he thinks is bad.

1596
01:16:36,957 --> 01:16:39,693
But our problem is that we
don't understand that God

1597
01:16:39,726 --> 01:16:41,296
is morally perfect.

1598
01:16:41,328 --> 01:16:43,398
And He not only warns He's
going to punish murderers,

1599
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:45,366
and torturers, and rapists...

1600
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:49,103
but also thieves and liars
and fornicators and blasphemers!

1601
01:16:49,369 --> 01:16:51,805
Lying is so serious, scripture
says all liars

1602
01:16:51,838 --> 01:16:53,875
will have their part in
the lake of fire!

1603
01:16:53,908 --> 01:16:56,277
Twenty times
in the New Testament alone,

1604
01:16:56,310 --> 01:17:00,983
the New Testament says that
hell is identified by "fire".

1605
01:17:01,416 --> 01:17:03,217
Jesus
describes Hell as a

1606
01:17:03,251 --> 01:17:07,322
furnace of fire,
weeping and gnashing of teeth,

1607
01:17:07,354 --> 01:17:09,256
as unquenchable fire,

1608
01:17:09,289 --> 01:17:12,993
eternal fire prepared for the
devil and his angels,

1609
01:17:13,027 --> 01:17:16,997
where the worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.

1610
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:20,201
Wow. Do I
think me, personally, in my sin,

1611
01:17:20,234 --> 01:17:23,238
deserve eternal
conscious torment?

1612
01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:25,939
Um, I would like to say no!

1613
01:17:25,972 --> 01:17:27,375
Nope!

1614
01:17:27,408 --> 01:17:31,680
I don't think that the crime

1615
01:17:31,712 --> 01:17:34,014
and the punishment are...

1616
01:17:34,047 --> 01:17:36,050
balanced.

1617
01:17:36,250 --> 01:17:39,953
You know, I see God
as a very loving individual.

1618
01:17:39,987 --> 01:17:42,923
And why would He torment
somebody forever,

1619
01:17:42,957 --> 01:17:46,427
who only had a life of sixty,
or seventy, or eighty years?

1620
01:17:46,461 --> 01:17:52,132
Sinners punished in hell
continue to sin!

1621
01:17:52,166 --> 01:17:56,471
It's not as if, you know,
sinners in hell

1622
01:17:56,503 --> 01:17:58,472
have then come to their senses!

1623
01:17:58,506 --> 01:18:01,176
and have turned in saying,
Oh God, please, now

1624
01:18:01,208 --> 01:18:02,876
would you forgive me?
and, I love Christ

1625
01:18:02,909 --> 01:18:04,878
and I worship Him.
No. No,

1626
01:18:04,912 --> 01:18:08,216
the description and the way the
Bible understands it is

1627
01:18:08,248 --> 01:18:11,118
that there's a continuing
sense of rebellion,

1628
01:18:11,152 --> 01:18:13,922
and thumbing your nose
against God, and a further

1629
01:18:13,954 --> 01:18:16,123
hardening of their heart!

1630
01:18:16,157 --> 01:18:19,894
We're not understanding that
our greatest problem

1631
01:18:19,926 --> 01:18:21,795
that needs to be addressed

1632
01:18:21,828 --> 01:18:25,766
isn't just a sin problem of
the things that we have done,

1633
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:29,471
but it's rather the person whom
we have done those sins against!

1634
01:18:29,503 --> 01:18:32,873
The thing is that God
is just a lot holier

1635
01:18:32,907 --> 01:18:34,743
than many of us think.

1636
01:18:34,775 --> 01:18:37,778
And if God really is holier,
then that means sin is worse

1637
01:18:37,811 --> 01:18:40,114
than many of us actually think.

1638
01:18:40,381 --> 01:18:44,953
I think the way that the Bible
tries to explain that is,

1639
01:18:44,985 --> 01:18:51,992
any sin against an infinite God
carries infinite consequences.

1640
01:18:52,025 --> 01:18:54,496
If I pick up a rock,
and I scratch a rock,

1641
01:18:54,529 --> 01:18:56,397
I'm guilty of scratching the
rock, but I'm not going to face

1642
01:18:56,430 --> 01:18:58,266
any consequences.

1643
01:18:58,298 --> 01:19:01,101
If I go to a dump site,
and I see a trashed car there,

1644
01:19:01,135 --> 01:19:04,105
and I take my key out and
I scratch the car,

1645
01:19:04,137 --> 01:19:05,974
people are going to say,
Hey, what are you doing?

1646
01:19:06,006 --> 01:19:08,976
If I go to a used car lot,
and I scratch a car,

1647
01:19:09,010 --> 01:19:12,347
Now... now I'm a
criminal offender. Right?

1648
01:19:12,380 --> 01:19:14,849
But if I go on a Ferrari lot...

1649
01:19:14,881 --> 01:19:17,885
I take the same key out
and I scratch the car, right?

1650
01:19:18,152 --> 01:19:22,356
My punishment just got
way bigger! Right?

1651
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:25,126
It's intensified. Why?

1652
01:19:25,158 --> 01:19:27,194
Because of the value of
the thing I sinned against,

1653
01:19:27,228 --> 01:19:28,962
the thing I scratched. Right?

1654
01:19:28,996 --> 01:19:31,865
So, if God is
infinitely valuable,

1655
01:19:31,899 --> 01:19:34,402
if He is infinitely beautiful,
and infinitely set apart,

1656
01:19:34,435 --> 01:19:36,938
He's holy. Right?

1657
01:19:36,970 --> 01:19:39,540
One little scratch,
one little white lie...

1658
01:19:39,940 --> 01:19:43,411
It's like high treason against
the king of all the universe!

1659
01:19:43,444 --> 01:19:48,115
God's justice demands
the death of the sinner!

1660
01:19:48,149 --> 01:19:51,252
A jealous and
avenging God is the Lord;

1661
01:19:51,284 --> 01:19:54,354
The Lord is avenging
and wrathful.

1662
01:19:54,387 --> 01:19:57,524
The Lord takes vengeance
on His adversaries,

1663
01:19:57,557 --> 01:20:00,295
And He reserves
wrath for His enemies.

1664
01:20:00,493 --> 01:20:04,398
So, His holiness demands
that sin be dealt with.

1665
01:20:04,431 --> 01:20:06,300
Another way to say it is this:

1666
01:20:06,333 --> 01:20:09,269
every sin ever committed by
every person who has ever lived,

1667
01:20:09,302 --> 01:20:11,038
will be punished.

1668
01:20:11,072 --> 01:20:13,440
That is required by
divine holiness

1669
01:20:13,474 --> 01:20:16,411
and divine righteousness
and divine justice.

1670
01:20:16,444 --> 01:20:20,114
The idea of justice,
like "punish the wicked!"

1671
01:20:20,146 --> 01:20:22,050
No, I don't want
to punish anybody.

1672
01:20:22,082 --> 01:20:23,451
I want to redeem everybody.

1673
01:20:23,484 --> 01:20:26,554
It will either be
punished everlastingly

1674
01:20:26,587 --> 01:20:28,590
in the life of the sinner-

1675
01:20:28,622 --> 01:20:30,891
the impenitent
unbelieving sinner-

1676
01:20:30,925 --> 01:20:33,293
or that punishment will be
borne by Christ.

1677
01:20:33,327 --> 01:20:35,563
John MacArthur might
be right about Him!

1678
01:20:35,595 --> 01:20:37,898
That's not a god worthy
of my worship!

1679
01:20:37,931 --> 01:20:39,967
I'm just not interested.

1680
01:20:40,001 --> 01:20:41,302
But first of all,
you need to understand something-

1681
01:20:41,335 --> 01:20:43,938
God's wrath is not like ours.

1682
01:20:43,970 --> 01:20:47,875
Our wrath is primarily
self-centered.

1683
01:20:47,908 --> 01:20:51,979
It's... it's coercive.
It's unrighteous.

1684
01:20:52,012 --> 01:20:54,649
But God's wrath is pure!

1685
01:20:54,681 --> 01:21:00,354
and it is the result of His
love for that which is right!

1686
01:21:00,387 --> 01:21:03,091
God's love.
How does God even define love?

1687
01:21:03,123 --> 01:21:07,594
Well, it says in Romans 12 that
"Love must be sincere.

1688
01:21:07,627 --> 01:21:10,097
Hate what is evil."

1689
01:21:10,131 --> 01:21:13,935
If you love that
which is right,

1690
01:21:13,967 --> 01:21:16,037
you will hate evil!

1691
01:21:16,069 --> 01:21:17,971
If you love life,
you will hate death!

1692
01:21:18,005 --> 01:21:21,409
If you love African Americans,
you will hate slavery!

1693
01:21:21,442 --> 01:21:24,177
If you love children,
you will hate abortion!

1694
01:21:24,211 --> 01:21:27,015
If you love Jews,
you will hate the Holocaust!

1695
01:21:27,047 --> 01:21:31,452
Why is it that we reserve the
right, as fallible human beings,

1696
01:21:31,484 --> 01:21:35,656
to burn with indignation
when we see an injustice?

1697
01:21:35,689 --> 01:21:38,259
And yet we say if
God does the same thing,

1698
01:21:38,292 --> 01:21:41,329
that's somehow
morally beneath Him!

1699
01:21:41,362 --> 01:21:43,664
His love is fierce!

1700
01:21:43,698 --> 01:21:46,668
and in the same degree,
His wrath is fierce

1701
01:21:46,701 --> 01:21:49,470
against evil!

1702
01:21:49,502 --> 01:21:52,172
In my own life
trying to understand this,

1703
01:21:52,206 --> 01:21:54,442
I was really encouraged by
Revelation 19.

1704
01:21:54,475 --> 01:21:57,412
Revelation 19 gives
us a glimpse of our future.

1705
01:21:57,444 --> 01:21:59,413
And there we are
in the presence of God

1706
01:21:59,447 --> 01:22:04,185
and seeing Him judge,
they're crying out Hallelujah!

1707
01:22:04,217 --> 01:22:07,521
to God's judgment, specifically
praising Him for judging!

1708
01:22:07,555 --> 01:22:10,557
What this means is that from
this future perspective-

1709
01:22:10,591 --> 01:22:12,694
now being in the very presence
of God now, seeing the

1710
01:22:12,726 --> 01:22:14,394
justice of God, not just
hearing about it,

1711
01:22:14,427 --> 01:22:18,032
seeing it for themselves,
they say, "This is good!"

1712
01:22:18,064 --> 01:22:20,067
This judgment you're
bringing is something I

1713
01:22:20,100 --> 01:22:21,735
can actually appreciate now!

1714
01:22:21,769 --> 01:22:24,038
Now, perhaps now, in your life,
you're not in a place where you

1715
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:27,175
can appreciate God's judgment,
but you can choose to trust Him!

1716
01:22:27,207 --> 01:22:29,042
But we do have in scripture,
reason to think that we're

1717
01:22:29,076 --> 01:22:30,712
going to be at
a place in the future

1718
01:22:30,744 --> 01:22:33,448
where we see it clearly for
ourselves, and we go, Oh...

1719
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:38,118
I see how right and good
Your judgment was all along.

1720
01:22:39,386 --> 01:22:41,755
To get a better
idea of Richard Rohr's

1721
01:22:41,788 --> 01:22:44,057
view of God,
we have to understand

1722
01:22:44,091 --> 01:22:47,328
his critique of something
he calls "dualistic thinking".

1723
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:51,198
You have to
practice rewiring this.

1724
01:22:51,231 --> 01:22:56,371
The normal way you and I are
wired is dualistically.

1725
01:22:56,404 --> 01:22:58,773
It's a way of
thinking about things as

1726
01:22:58,805 --> 01:23:02,342
"either-or". So either
something is one way,

1727
01:23:02,376 --> 01:23:04,045
or it's another.

1728
01:23:04,078 --> 01:23:07,315
The dualistic mind is
making these distinctions

1729
01:23:07,347 --> 01:23:11,219
between good and evil:
who's in, who's out,

1730
01:23:11,252 --> 01:23:13,621
who's a Christian,
who's not a Christian.

1731
01:23:13,654 --> 01:23:15,790
For me or against me,

1732
01:23:15,823 --> 01:23:17,625
a part of our religion or not.

1733
01:23:17,658 --> 01:23:20,161
Everything was
"either-or" thinking.

1734
01:23:20,194 --> 01:23:22,263
And he
thinks we need to cultivate

1735
01:23:22,296 --> 01:23:24,731
a non-dual mind.

1736
01:23:24,765 --> 01:23:27,435
When you get
to this level of maturity

1737
01:23:27,467 --> 01:23:30,570
and enlightenment, then we
learn to think in terms of

1738
01:23:30,604 --> 01:23:32,707
"both-and".

1739
01:23:32,739 --> 01:23:35,510
Once you're
fighting, you're dualistic!

1740
01:23:35,542 --> 01:23:37,444
Trust me on that, alright?

1741
01:23:37,478 --> 01:23:39,180
You've got to choose sides.

1742
01:23:39,212 --> 01:23:41,448
You've got to
prove your opinion!

1743
01:23:41,481 --> 01:23:44,051
But he's
being dualistic, of course,

1744
01:23:44,085 --> 01:23:48,555
because he's saying that it's
better to be non-dual

1745
01:23:48,588 --> 01:23:52,092
than dualistic. But that's
a dualistic statement!

1746
01:23:52,126 --> 01:23:54,128
Because you're making a
distinction. As long as you're

1747
01:23:54,161 --> 01:23:56,697
making distinctions,
you're being dualistic.

1748
01:23:56,729 --> 01:23:58,432
When you get
to the contemplative

1749
01:23:58,466 --> 01:24:00,168
level of life,

1750
01:24:00,201 --> 01:24:03,637
you don't think dualistically:
either-or.

1751
01:24:03,671 --> 01:24:07,375
You almost naturally
learn to think both-and.

1752
01:24:07,408 --> 01:24:10,078
Richard Rohr
teaches that we need

1753
01:24:10,110 --> 01:24:12,145
contemplative practices, like

1754
01:24:12,179 --> 01:24:14,414
what is called
"contemplative prayer".

1755
01:24:14,448 --> 01:24:18,519
So the goal of... of life
is the contemplative mind.

1756
01:24:18,551 --> 01:24:21,188
The contemplative practices,

1757
01:24:21,221 --> 01:24:24,425
which often involve certain
methods where you

1758
01:24:24,457 --> 01:24:26,827
go into the silence,
or where you

1759
01:24:26,860 --> 01:24:30,698
try to experience God
rather than think about God.

1760
01:24:30,730 --> 01:24:33,233
He thinks that these methods
will help you have a

1761
01:24:33,266 --> 01:24:36,304
new consciousness
and understanding.

1762
01:24:36,337 --> 01:24:39,774
So this is why
religions at the higher levels

1763
01:24:39,806 --> 01:24:44,612
try to get us disconnected
from this control tower.

1764
01:24:44,645 --> 01:24:46,481
Kind of
like in The Matrix when you

1765
01:24:46,514 --> 01:24:49,650
take a certain pill,
and you wake up.

1766
01:24:49,682 --> 01:24:51,519
It's like
taking the red pill.

1767
01:24:51,551 --> 01:24:54,188
And, everything you've believed
about reality before that point

1768
01:24:54,220 --> 01:24:58,191
is false, but then you'll be
open to this new paradigm.

1769
01:24:58,225 --> 01:25:00,795
Welcome to the real world.

1770
01:25:00,828 --> 01:25:04,565
Now, this
method of contemplation,

1771
01:25:04,597 --> 01:25:07,301
which he may even
call meditation,

1772
01:25:07,333 --> 01:25:11,706
is very different from what the
Bible means about meditation.

1773
01:25:11,738 --> 01:25:14,174
In the case of biblical
meditation,

1774
01:25:14,207 --> 01:25:17,210
you're actively using your mind.

1775
01:25:17,243 --> 01:25:20,447
You're not setting your
thinking mind aside,

1776
01:25:20,480 --> 01:25:23,717
and you're not trying to
have a mystical experience.

1777
01:25:23,751 --> 01:25:27,655
That's what begins to teach you
non-dual thinking...

1778
01:25:27,688 --> 01:25:30,224
In a video
clip, he says at this one point,

1779
01:25:30,256 --> 01:25:31,893
It's where you let
the whole moment

1780
01:25:31,926 --> 01:25:33,828
come towards you as it is.

1781
01:25:33,860 --> 01:25:37,765
Where you let the whole moment
come towards you as it is,

1782
01:25:37,797 --> 01:25:40,768
without dividing
the uncomfortable part,

1783
01:25:40,801 --> 01:25:43,604
or separating from
the mysterious part.

1784
01:25:43,636 --> 01:25:46,306
This is
really ironic, because

1785
01:25:46,340 --> 01:25:49,243
when it comes to Rohr's
understanding of

1786
01:25:49,275 --> 01:25:51,645
Christian doctrine, when it
comes to his understanding

1787
01:25:51,679 --> 01:25:54,815
of the attributes of God
and the atonement,

1788
01:25:55,216 --> 01:25:57,451
it really seems like that's
exactly what he's doing!

1789
01:25:57,484 --> 01:26:00,555
He's... he's dividing the
uncomfortable parts

1790
01:26:00,587 --> 01:26:03,623
and separating from
the mysterious parts. So...

1791
01:26:03,657 --> 01:26:06,360
a dualistic way of looking at
the nature of God would be

1792
01:26:06,393 --> 01:26:10,398
to say God is either
righteous and wrathful,

1793
01:26:10,430 --> 01:26:13,266
or He's gracious
and loving.

1794
01:26:13,300 --> 01:26:15,802
So, he actually is dualistic,

1795
01:26:15,836 --> 01:26:18,873
Because he's rejecting
one attribute of God

1796
01:26:18,905 --> 01:26:22,542
and accepting the other
attribute, when the truth is...

1797
01:26:22,576 --> 01:26:24,545
really, it's both!

1798
01:26:24,578 --> 01:26:26,347
Of course,
the non-dualistic way would be

1799
01:26:26,380 --> 01:26:29,951
that He displays both
His grace and His wrath

1800
01:26:29,984 --> 01:26:31,886
on the cross together!

1801
01:26:31,918 --> 01:26:34,988
The moment
that we choose a side

1802
01:26:35,021 --> 01:26:38,391
is the moment that we end up
in some theological error.

1803
01:26:38,425 --> 01:26:41,429
We don't want to live in
those paradoxes,

1804
01:26:41,462 --> 01:26:44,765
that an incomprehensible being
can be both-and.

1805
01:26:44,797 --> 01:26:46,733
I mean, we don't like
tension in the modern world.

1806
01:26:46,766 --> 01:26:49,470
We like it to be this or this.
We like it to be either-or.

1807
01:26:49,502 --> 01:26:52,372
We grew up with multiple choice-
fill in one bubble!

1808
01:26:52,405 --> 01:26:54,574
It's not A and B!

1809
01:26:54,608 --> 01:26:56,543
If you're going to
preach a biblical

1810
01:26:56,577 --> 01:26:58,479
definition of mercy,

1811
01:26:58,511 --> 01:27:02,582
then you must, at some point,
point to the wrath of God,

1812
01:27:02,615 --> 01:27:06,220
for what are you receiving
mercy from and for?

1813
01:27:06,453 --> 01:27:08,990
I don't love the idea
of God's wrath.

1814
01:27:09,023 --> 01:27:13,327
I don't think it's central to
the way the Bible portrays God,

1815
01:27:13,359 --> 01:27:16,496
particularly not in
the New Testament.

1816
01:27:16,863 --> 01:27:21,435
Clearly, Israel had an
experience with God's wrath.

1817
01:27:21,635 --> 01:27:26,007
So, it's also not something that
I would find ways to, you know,

1818
01:27:26,039 --> 01:27:28,341
interpret my way
out of or around.

1819
01:27:28,375 --> 01:27:30,011
It's part of Israel's
experience,

1820
01:27:30,043 --> 01:27:32,646
so we need to take it seriously.

1821
01:27:32,845 --> 01:27:38,619
But it also leads me to believe
that God changes.

1822
01:27:38,851 --> 01:27:41,354
He's denying God's immutability!

1823
01:27:41,387 --> 01:27:45,559
part of what makes God, God,
is that he doesn't change.

1824
01:27:45,591 --> 01:27:48,295
God is not
presented in the scriptures

1825
01:27:48,328 --> 01:27:52,399
as schizophrenic,
a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde.

1826
01:27:52,599 --> 01:27:55,336
You've got as much grace in the
Old Testament as you do

1827
01:27:55,368 --> 01:27:57,037
in the New Testament!

1828
01:27:57,070 --> 01:28:00,841
He passed over the sins of
Moses and Abraham and David.

1829
01:28:00,873 --> 01:28:05,378
He did not hold them to the
degree that the law required.

1830
01:28:05,412 --> 01:28:06,914
That's grace!

1831
01:28:06,947 --> 01:28:10,917
"Noah found grace
in the eyes of the Lord."

1832
01:28:10,951 --> 01:28:14,654
Jesus talked more about hell
than people, I think, want to

1833
01:28:14,688 --> 01:28:16,390
give Him credit for.

1834
01:28:16,422 --> 01:28:19,059
I think people forget things
like Acts Chapter 5,

1835
01:28:19,092 --> 01:28:22,363
Ananias and Sapphira,
in the New Testament.

1836
01:28:22,395 --> 01:28:24,532
They were immediately judged!

1837
01:28:24,564 --> 01:28:27,067
It was, to me, a sense of like,
there's the Old Testament

1838
01:28:27,100 --> 01:28:31,037
God of wrath and judgment right
there in the early church,

1839
01:28:31,070 --> 01:28:33,341
the start of the church.
Ananias and Sapphira are

1840
01:28:33,373 --> 01:28:35,675
struck down dead
immediately for their sin!

1841
01:28:35,708 --> 01:28:38,412
And so,
what we see is we see that

1842
01:28:38,444 --> 01:28:41,014
that there's two ruts
that we want to avoid.

1843
01:28:41,047 --> 01:28:43,917
We certainly don't want
to fall into the rut

1844
01:28:43,951 --> 01:28:45,920
on one side of
the road that says,

1845
01:28:45,953 --> 01:28:49,724
It's all the wrath of God.
We see that in, in certain,

1846
01:28:49,756 --> 01:28:51,991
you know,
unbalanced ministries as well.

1847
01:28:52,024 --> 01:28:54,894
We also see the other rut
is that we...

1848
01:28:54,927 --> 01:28:57,597
All we want to do is talk about
the grace of God,

1849
01:28:57,631 --> 01:28:59,834
and the love of God,
and the mercy of God,

1850
01:28:59,867 --> 01:29:01,969
but we don't want to
talk about the wrath of God.

1851
01:29:02,002 --> 01:29:03,771
So, we need to be balanced.

1852
01:29:04,137 --> 01:29:06,573
we have to affirm that
both the Old Testament,

1853
01:29:06,606 --> 01:29:11,444
the New Testament,
is both and altogether

1854
01:29:11,478 --> 01:29:14,614
God's breathed out word,
fully authoritative.

1855
01:29:14,648 --> 01:29:19,119
Think of 2 Timothy 3,
Paul's referring to Scripture:

1856
01:29:19,153 --> 01:29:21,088
All Scripture is God breathed.

1857
01:29:21,121 --> 01:29:23,024
He's primarily referring
to the Old Testament!

1858
01:29:23,457 --> 01:29:25,726
Once you start picking
any one part of the Bible,

1859
01:29:25,759 --> 01:29:27,595
and saying like,
I think it's wrong,

1860
01:29:27,627 --> 01:29:31,731
you go like, Wait a second!
This is just a human book!

1861
01:29:31,765 --> 01:29:34,001
When the
reliability of the Bible

1862
01:29:34,033 --> 01:29:37,137
was being questioned and
brought under great scrutiny

1863
01:29:37,171 --> 01:29:39,472
in this class that I was in,

1864
01:29:39,506 --> 01:29:43,110
I kind of didn't know where to
look, and so I thought you know,

1865
01:29:43,143 --> 01:29:45,712
"I'm a follower of Jesus.

1866
01:29:45,746 --> 01:29:48,449
So, Jesus is the one who
claimed to be God,

1867
01:29:48,481 --> 01:29:49,716
was resurrected from the dead-

1868
01:29:49,750 --> 01:29:51,085
He gets to make the rules

1869
01:29:51,118 --> 01:29:52,753
about what I believe
about everything.

1870
01:29:52,786 --> 01:29:54,755
And so when I was
in college, I studied

1871
01:29:54,787 --> 01:29:56,923
the writings of Karl Barth, and
I was like, Oh my gosh! like,

1872
01:29:56,957 --> 01:29:58,859
"I think this is just
a human document."

1873
01:29:58,891 --> 01:30:01,429
Like, there are all sorts
of inconsistencies...

1874
01:30:01,462 --> 01:30:04,465
I mean, when people talk to me
about inerrancy...

1875
01:30:04,497 --> 01:30:05,899
Is the Bible inerrant?

1876
01:30:07,734 --> 01:30:10,471
When someone uses, like,
"without error", or "inerrant",

1877
01:30:10,503 --> 01:30:12,539
or "infallible" to
describe the Bible,

1878
01:30:12,573 --> 01:30:13,841
they're essentially saying they
wish they had a different

1879
01:30:13,873 --> 01:30:15,608
kind of book!

1880
01:30:15,641 --> 01:30:18,011
For example, Rob Bell

1881
01:30:18,045 --> 01:30:22,149
has said that it degrades the
Bible to put it in the category

1882
01:30:22,181 --> 01:30:24,818
of inerrant, or the word of God.

1883
01:30:24,851 --> 01:30:28,021
It actually degrades
and devalues the Bible,

1884
01:30:28,055 --> 01:30:32,159
because it places categories
on the Bible that

1885
01:30:32,192 --> 01:30:35,229
that nobody in the Bible would
ever have thought to even

1886
01:30:35,261 --> 01:30:37,063
place on the Bible.

1887
01:30:37,096 --> 01:30:39,065
But to say
that the Bible is "inerrant"

1888
01:30:39,099 --> 01:30:41,869
when it doesn't even refer
to itself as "inerrant"

1889
01:30:41,902 --> 01:30:44,637
is really, really problematic!
To say that it's authoritative,

1890
01:30:44,671 --> 01:30:46,807
I would say,
"What do you mean by that?"

1891
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:49,176
Just looking
at what Jesus believed

1892
01:30:49,208 --> 01:30:51,545
about the Old Testament
is stunning!

1893
01:30:51,578 --> 01:30:54,949
It's very clear that Jesus
affirmed over and over

1894
01:30:54,981 --> 01:30:56,583
and over again,

1895
01:30:56,617 --> 01:30:58,985
that the Old Testament
was the word of God.

1896
01:30:59,586 --> 01:31:03,623
Jesus is
the word of God incarnate,

1897
01:31:03,657 --> 01:31:06,894
and yet he submitted
to the scriptures.

1898
01:31:06,926 --> 01:31:09,762
Three times
the devil comes and tempts Him,

1899
01:31:09,796 --> 01:31:14,034
And Jesus says each time, It is
written." "It is written."

1900
01:31:14,067 --> 01:31:17,938
"It is written. The devil even
quotes scripture back to Him!

1901
01:31:17,970 --> 01:31:19,906
So, in Matthew 15:4

1902
01:31:19,939 --> 01:31:22,643
He referenced several
commands from Exodus,

1903
01:31:22,676 --> 01:31:25,212
and Leviticus, and Deuteronomy,

1904
01:31:25,244 --> 01:31:28,548
and how he described them was
he said, For God said,

1905
01:31:28,582 --> 01:31:30,851
and then he quotes
the Old Testament passage.

1906
01:31:30,884 --> 01:31:34,788
He told the Pharisees that
they void the word of God

1907
01:31:34,820 --> 01:31:37,224
by adding their own
traditions to it.

1908
01:31:37,256 --> 01:31:40,560
So, He's referring to scripture
as the word of God there.

1909
01:31:40,594 --> 01:31:42,962
And so, when he
says in his high priestly prayer

1910
01:31:42,996 --> 01:31:48,135
in John 17:17, "Sanctify them
in truth; Your word is truth,"

1911
01:31:48,167 --> 01:31:50,871
it meant that it's revelation!

1912
01:31:50,904 --> 01:31:54,909
And, it's reliable revelation
because it comes from God.

1913
01:31:54,942 --> 01:31:57,043
Scripture has come to us
over time.

1914
01:31:57,077 --> 01:32:00,314
That's what we mean by
"progressive", over time.

1915
01:32:00,346 --> 01:32:04,984
But it's not as if the earlier
revelation is regressive,

1916
01:32:05,018 --> 01:32:09,722
or inferior, and somehow
the New Testament is

1917
01:32:09,756 --> 01:32:11,225
better in the sense that it's

1918
01:32:11,257 --> 01:32:13,226
correcting the
mistakes of the old.

1919
01:32:13,260 --> 01:32:14,862
But progressive Christianity

1920
01:32:14,895 --> 01:32:17,831
as a movement looks at
the earliest Christians.

1921
01:32:17,863 --> 01:32:19,732
They look at Paul and Peter.

1922
01:32:19,765 --> 01:32:21,969
The first disciples, the first
century church,

1923
01:32:22,002 --> 01:32:23,871
the second century church,

1924
01:32:23,904 --> 01:32:27,708
and they view that as: that's
Christianity in its infancy.

1925
01:32:27,740 --> 01:32:29,342
Essentially,
you read the Bible as an

1926
01:32:29,376 --> 01:32:32,746
evolving narrative.

1927
01:32:32,779 --> 01:32:34,648
So,
the knowledge they had

1928
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,349
of God at that time

1929
01:32:36,382 --> 01:32:39,653
wasn't quite as evolved as the
knowledge that we have now.

1930
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:41,689
Instead of,
Well, God did this.

1931
01:32:41,721 --> 01:32:44,692
We don't know! All we have
is human accounts of what-

1932
01:32:44,725 --> 01:32:46,594
how people understood it

1933
01:32:46,627 --> 01:32:49,196
in their evolving understandings
of how the world works.

1934
01:32:49,395 --> 01:32:51,698
All throughout history,

1935
01:32:51,731 --> 01:32:54,768
human beings are growing,
and maturing, and evolving

1936
01:32:54,801 --> 01:32:56,870
into what Brian McLaren
would call,

1937
01:32:56,903 --> 01:32:59,640
A higher and wiser
view of God.

1938
01:32:59,672 --> 01:33:02,609
So, the
Bible becomes sort of like

1939
01:33:02,643 --> 01:33:04,944
an interesting book to see
what people thought of God

1940
01:33:04,978 --> 01:33:06,380
at the time,

1941
01:33:06,412 --> 01:33:09,882
but it's not actually
God breathed words.

1942
01:33:09,916 --> 01:33:12,886
In the evolution
of human consciousness,

1943
01:33:12,918 --> 01:33:14,787
we were infantile,

1944
01:33:14,820 --> 01:33:17,858
and we pulled God down
to our level, you know?

1945
01:33:17,890 --> 01:33:20,661
A fighting God, an angry God,

1946
01:33:20,694 --> 01:33:22,396
- a jealous God...
- Yeah.

1947
01:33:22,429 --> 01:33:25,231
So Oprah,
apparently, according to her,

1948
01:33:25,265 --> 01:33:27,635
was first alienated
from Christianity

1949
01:33:27,667 --> 01:33:31,404
hearing a sermon about God
as a jealous God.

1950
01:33:31,438 --> 01:33:33,039
I think I shared
this with you before.

1951
01:33:33,073 --> 01:33:34,875
I was sitting in
a church service,

1952
01:33:34,908 --> 01:33:39,046
listening to a really fine
minister talk about

1953
01:33:39,078 --> 01:33:41,748
God being angry and jealous,

1954
01:33:41,782 --> 01:33:43,751
and in the same breath saying
omnipotent,

1955
01:33:43,783 --> 01:33:45,418
all-caring, all-loving!

1956
01:33:45,452 --> 01:33:48,055
For you shall
not worship any other god,

1957
01:33:48,087 --> 01:33:51,992
for the Lord, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God.

1958
01:33:52,024 --> 01:33:53,860
And I was, you know,

1959
01:33:53,894 --> 01:33:56,997
caught up in the rapture of that
moment until he said "jealous."

1960
01:33:57,029 --> 01:33:58,731
And she took
the word jealous in the

1961
01:33:58,765 --> 01:34:01,802
wrong way, not understanding
what that means,

1962
01:34:01,835 --> 01:34:05,739
that God is zealous for who He
is, and won't share His glory.

1963
01:34:05,771 --> 01:34:08,207
She took it as meaning
jealous of her.

1964
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:10,210
And God's also jealous?

1965
01:34:10,243 --> 01:34:12,179
Jealous... God is
jealous of me?

1966
01:34:12,212 --> 01:34:16,751
Jealous God? Like, but God is
love! How is that possible? Um,

1967
01:34:17,050 --> 01:34:20,287
I don't think I have so much
of a problem with Oprah

1968
01:34:20,319 --> 01:34:22,355
maybe recoiling in that moment.

1969
01:34:22,389 --> 01:34:23,923
Something about that didn't...

1970
01:34:23,957 --> 01:34:26,060
didn't feel right in my spirit.

1971
01:34:26,092 --> 01:34:30,197
But what I have a problem with
is that instead of testing

1972
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:32,865
the spirits, instead of going
through the scriptures

1973
01:34:32,899 --> 01:34:34,835
to understand for herself,

1974
01:34:34,868 --> 01:34:38,105
she just totally tossed out
any concept of what

1975
01:34:38,137 --> 01:34:39,739
the pastor was saying

1976
01:34:39,773 --> 01:34:41,442
and decided to just
go with her feelings.

1977
01:34:41,475 --> 01:34:43,477
That's
when the... the search

1978
01:34:43,510 --> 01:34:46,313
for something more
than doctrine,

1979
01:34:46,345 --> 01:34:48,981
uh, started to stir within me.

1980
01:34:49,015 --> 01:34:50,918
I would love
to talk to that person,

1981
01:34:50,951 --> 01:34:54,354
because that person is very
intelligent, very hard-working,

1982
01:34:54,386 --> 01:34:57,457
they've... they've
created an empire!

1983
01:34:57,490 --> 01:35:00,094
Now, this is what
I would say to them:

1984
01:35:00,127 --> 01:35:03,197
If I walked into your central
offices where you have

1985
01:35:03,229 --> 01:35:07,867
your main office as founder
and president of your empire,

1986
01:35:07,900 --> 01:35:12,172
and I walked right in and said,
"I'm taking over!"

1987
01:35:12,773 --> 01:35:15,074
and I started commanding people
to do certain things,

1988
01:35:15,108 --> 01:35:16,409
I started taking money,

1989
01:35:16,443 --> 01:35:19,079
I started spending
it a certain way.

1990
01:35:19,112 --> 01:35:23,417
Although I have nothing to do
with what you built,

1991
01:35:23,449 --> 01:35:26,185
you would probably walk out of
your office with disdain,

1992
01:35:26,219 --> 01:35:30,757
and rightfully so, and say to
me, "Who do you think you are?"

1993
01:35:30,791 --> 01:35:34,293
"This is not yours!" And I say,
"Well whose is it?"

1994
01:35:34,327 --> 01:35:36,363
"Well it's mine, I made it!"

1995
01:35:36,395 --> 01:35:39,233
And you would... you would be
rightfully jealous

1996
01:35:39,265 --> 01:35:42,036
for the thing that you had
created, that you had made.

1997
01:35:42,269 --> 01:35:46,173
Would you reserve the right for
you to feel that way,

1998
01:35:46,206 --> 01:35:49,409
for you to burn with a
righteous jealousy

1999
01:35:49,442 --> 01:35:51,377
over the things
that you created?

2000
01:35:51,411 --> 01:35:53,947
And yet you say that
God has no right

2001
01:35:53,979 --> 01:35:57,050
to be jealous over the things
that He has made.

2002
01:35:57,384 --> 01:36:02,055
He has every right!
This is His world!

2003
01:36:02,087 --> 01:36:05,091
But His jealousy goes beyond
ours in that ours is oftentimes

2004
01:36:05,125 --> 01:36:06,894
selfish and self-centered.

2005
01:36:07,092 --> 01:36:10,863
His jealousy also
benefits His creatures,

2006
01:36:10,896 --> 01:36:13,466
because He knows
that for us to live

2007
01:36:13,500 --> 01:36:16,002
for anything other than Him

2008
01:36:16,036 --> 01:36:19,273
will just lead to us
being ruined.

2009
01:36:19,305 --> 01:36:22,942
And so, His jealousy
actually is motivated

2010
01:36:22,975 --> 01:36:25,945
not only by His glory,
but by His love!

2011
01:36:25,979 --> 01:36:29,483
All of that Old Testament
is God-given.

2012
01:36:29,515 --> 01:36:31,518
And you can't just
simply say, "Well...

2013
01:36:31,551 --> 01:36:33,487
we're in the New Testament era
now. We're going to

2014
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:35,055
dismiss the Old Testament!"

2015
01:36:35,087 --> 01:36:37,056
That is a wrong view of
Scripture,

2016
01:36:37,090 --> 01:36:39,193
that's a wrong view of
divine revelation,

2017
01:36:39,225 --> 01:36:42,328
and it will never lead us
to a proper understanding

2018
01:36:42,362 --> 01:36:44,297
of the cross.

2019
01:36:44,331 --> 01:36:46,400
In the New
Testament, I see the greatest

2020
01:36:46,432 --> 01:36:50,604
display of wrath ever, ever
displayed before mankind,

2021
01:36:50,636 --> 01:36:52,572
far greater than
Sodom and Gomorrah,

2022
01:36:52,605 --> 01:36:55,007
far greater than
the flood of Noah!

2023
01:36:55,041 --> 01:36:58,412
It was when God poured out His
holy wrath on His son

2024
01:36:58,444 --> 01:37:03,049
there on that rugged cross
for all of us who would believe.

2025
01:37:03,082 --> 01:37:06,052
Any idea of like a
divine being who kills his son-

2026
01:37:06,086 --> 01:37:08,155
I just reject wholeheartedly.

2027
01:37:08,188 --> 01:37:11,324
I think it's important that
when we read the Bible,

2028
01:37:11,358 --> 01:37:13,460
we realize that we're
gonna read things

2029
01:37:13,493 --> 01:37:15,462
that offend our sensibilities!

2030
01:37:15,494 --> 01:37:19,465
That's a sick God
and a sick story!

2031
01:37:19,666 --> 01:37:21,568
And so that's why we
need to let the Bible,

2032
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:25,071
we need to let the word of God,
correct our sensibilities,

2033
01:37:25,104 --> 01:37:26,372
when they're wrong!

2034
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:30,344
One of the worst things about
the American gospel today

2035
01:37:30,377 --> 01:37:33,313
is that people are made to
believe that God

2036
01:37:33,345 --> 01:37:36,349
loves the sinner,
but he hates the sin.

2037
01:37:36,382 --> 01:37:42,221
So that, somehow,
sin is divorced from the sinner.

2038
01:37:42,255 --> 01:37:45,092
I just have
some verses that seriously

2039
01:37:45,125 --> 01:37:47,027
say the opposite!

2040
01:37:47,226 --> 01:37:50,596
that not only does God hate sin,

2041
01:37:50,630 --> 01:37:54,268
but He also hates the sinner,
in his sin!

2042
01:37:54,935 --> 01:37:56,904
For You are
not a God who takes pleasure

2043
01:37:56,936 --> 01:38:00,539
in wickedness;
No evil dwells with you.

2044
01:38:00,573 --> 01:38:04,144
The boastful shall not
stand before your eyes;

2045
01:38:04,176 --> 01:38:07,246
You hate all who do iniquity.

2046
01:38:07,279 --> 01:38:09,949
The next verse,
The Lord abhors

2047
01:38:09,983 --> 01:38:13,619
the man of bloodshed. Not just
that he abhors bloodshed,

2048
01:38:13,653 --> 01:38:17,457
He abhors <i>the man</i> of bloodshed!

2049
01:38:17,489 --> 01:38:19,259
Jacob I loved,
but Esau I hated."

2050
01:38:19,292 --> 01:38:22,996
I mean there is a hatred of God
toward the sinner!

2051
01:38:23,029 --> 01:38:28,102
After all, it is not simply
the sin that goes to hell,

2052
01:38:28,301 --> 01:38:30,270
but the sinner!

2053
01:38:30,302 --> 01:38:33,974
So there is
this love-hate relationship

2054
01:38:34,006 --> 01:38:37,143
that God has with the sinner.

2055
01:38:37,176 --> 01:38:39,345
I just think that
comes from a lack of

2056
01:38:39,378 --> 01:38:41,414
biblical literacy,
that we have now. Right?

2057
01:38:41,448 --> 01:38:43,383
I mean, people don't
open up their Bibles

2058
01:38:43,416 --> 01:38:45,217
and if you don't open up your
Bible you're going to believe

2059
01:38:45,251 --> 01:38:47,253
what <i>Tom & Jerry</i> says.

2060
01:38:47,287 --> 01:38:48,622
And <i>Tom & Jerry</i> says
that Satan is the one

2061
01:38:48,654 --> 01:38:50,523
that is going to torment you.

2062
01:38:50,556 --> 01:38:52,626
And it is not
the devil who is inflicting

2063
01:38:52,658 --> 01:38:54,293
the wrath in hell.

2064
01:38:54,327 --> 01:38:56,363
The devil is the
recipient of wrath,

2065
01:38:56,395 --> 01:38:58,230
he is not the
dispenser of wrath.

2066
01:38:58,264 --> 01:39:02,301
So, who is exercising
wrath in hell?

2067
01:39:02,335 --> 01:39:03,703
Let me give you
another example:

2068
01:39:03,737 --> 01:39:05,439
Heaven is heaven
because God is there.

2069
01:39:05,471 --> 01:39:08,074
Well that is most...
that is true!

2070
01:39:08,108 --> 01:39:10,177
But then the counter
is not true:

2071
01:39:10,210 --> 01:39:12,179
"Hell is hell because
God's not there."

2072
01:39:12,212 --> 01:39:14,047
That's not what
scripture teaches!

2073
01:39:14,079 --> 01:39:17,952
Hell is the wrath
of Almighty God!

2074
01:39:19,485 --> 01:39:21,153
God is omnipresent.

2075
01:39:21,186 --> 01:39:23,289
God is everywhere present.

2076
01:39:23,323 --> 01:39:26,426
and not only is God present
in the heights of heaven,

2077
01:39:26,458 --> 01:39:31,063
but God is also present
in the depths of hell.

2078
01:39:31,096 --> 01:39:33,666
So, Matthew 10:28 says:

2079
01:39:33,699 --> 01:39:35,568
Do not fear those
who kill the body

2080
01:39:35,601 --> 01:39:37,703
but are unable to kill the soul;

2081
01:39:37,737 --> 01:39:40,140
but rather fear <i>Him</i>
who is able to destroy

2082
01:39:40,172 --> 01:39:43,609
both soul and body in hell.

2083
01:39:43,643 --> 01:39:45,511
The reality is

2084
01:39:45,545 --> 01:39:48,748
if you are a unbeliever, and
if you are condemned to hell,

2085
01:39:48,782 --> 01:39:51,083
you're not separated from God!

2086
01:39:51,117 --> 01:39:53,654
You may be separated
from God's <i>love!</i>

2087
01:39:54,119 --> 01:39:56,622
And Revelation 14:10 gives

2088
01:39:56,655 --> 01:39:59,592
some shocking insight-

2089
01:39:59,626 --> 01:40:03,096
that the wrath
is being inflicted

2090
01:40:03,128 --> 01:40:06,432
by Jesus Christ Himself!

2091
01:40:06,466 --> 01:40:11,137
in the very presence
of Christ in hell.

2092
01:40:11,171 --> 01:40:13,073
That's a terrifying thought-

2093
01:40:13,105 --> 01:40:16,275
that the sinner
will never escape,

2094
01:40:16,509 --> 01:40:20,747
not only the wrath of Christ,
but Christ Himself!

2095
01:40:20,779 --> 01:40:23,550
Now some of you will walk out
of here tonight shocked!

2096
01:40:23,582 --> 01:40:25,451
You'll say, I've never
heard anything like that.

2097
01:40:25,484 --> 01:40:28,121
You'll say, He was mean-
spirited. All sorts of things,

2098
01:40:28,154 --> 01:40:30,791
but I can assure you
if you would only read old books

2099
01:40:30,823 --> 01:40:35,361
you would find out this is what
preachers have always said!

2100
01:40:36,429 --> 01:40:40,500
They don't say it anymore
because they want big churches!

2101
01:40:40,533 --> 01:40:45,639
So as my eyes were opened to my
own sin more and more,

2102
01:40:45,671 --> 01:40:51,177
and to the amazing holiness
and perfection of God

2103
01:40:51,211 --> 01:40:56,216
and the incredible divide
between myself and my creator,

2104
01:40:56,416 --> 01:40:59,152
I began not to see hell
as this cosmic injustice,

2105
01:40:59,185 --> 01:41:00,854
but I began to see it as
something that

2106
01:41:00,886 --> 01:41:03,090
every one of us deserved!

2107
01:41:03,555 --> 01:41:06,592
and how incredible
God's mercy is,

2108
01:41:06,626 --> 01:41:09,630
that He's chosen to offer us
a way to be saved.

2109
01:41:10,229 --> 01:41:13,099
But God,
being rich in mercy,

2110
01:41:13,132 --> 01:41:15,801
because of His great love
with which He loved us,

2111
01:41:15,835 --> 01:41:18,738
even when we were dead
in our transgressions,

2112
01:41:18,770 --> 01:41:21,273
made us alive
together with Christ

2113
01:41:21,306 --> 01:41:23,542
(by grace you
have been saved).

2114
01:41:23,576 --> 01:41:26,779
But God's love is
of such a character,

2115
01:41:26,813 --> 01:41:29,349
that He's even able to love

2116
01:41:29,381 --> 01:41:31,350
and show love
and demonstrate love

2117
01:41:31,384 --> 01:41:32,786
towards the
objects of His wrath.

2118
01:41:32,819 --> 01:41:34,721
It is though with one hand,

2119
01:41:34,753 --> 01:41:38,457
God is holding back
His justice against this world,

2120
01:41:38,490 --> 01:41:41,528
and with another hand He is
pleading for men to come!

2121
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:44,831
but one day both hands
will be dropped!

2122
01:41:44,863 --> 01:41:47,634
You know that, don't you?

2123
01:41:47,667 --> 01:41:49,836
Often, I think,
there's a misunderstanding

2124
01:41:49,868 --> 01:41:54,206
among Atheists and even
among progressive Christians,

2125
01:41:54,239 --> 01:41:57,243
who would say, Well, you're
only believing the gospel

2126
01:41:57,277 --> 01:41:59,512
that you believe, because
you're scared of hell.

2127
01:41:59,546 --> 01:42:01,280
When you tell me
that I should follow Jesus,

2128
01:42:01,314 --> 01:42:04,284
so that I don't burn forever,
it sounds like a threat!

2129
01:42:04,317 --> 01:42:06,219
As if like you scare people
enough they will

2130
01:42:06,252 --> 01:42:08,855
all of a sudden, magically,
decide to love God and

2131
01:42:08,887 --> 01:42:10,422
follow Jesus.

2132
01:42:10,456 --> 01:42:13,860
There are many
motivations in scripture.

2133
01:42:13,893 --> 01:42:17,264
we can make mistakes
about biblical motivation by

2134
01:42:17,296 --> 01:42:21,201
going a couple of directions.
One mistake is to not say,

2135
01:42:21,234 --> 01:42:23,703
"There is a plurality
of motivations."

2136
01:42:23,735 --> 01:42:27,873
That is reward, gain, fear of
consequence, love for God-

2137
01:42:27,907 --> 01:42:31,244
these are all motivations
that the scriptures use.

2138
01:42:31,277 --> 01:42:32,846
The other mistake is not to say,

2139
01:42:32,878 --> 01:42:35,582
"There is a priority
of motivations."

2140
01:42:35,614 --> 01:42:37,483
We must be careful when we start

2141
01:42:37,516 --> 01:42:39,752
talking about fear

2142
01:42:39,786 --> 01:42:42,655
as a motivation
to serve the Lord.

2143
01:42:42,689 --> 01:42:46,326
The Bible clearly says
that we ought to fear the Lord.

2144
01:42:46,359 --> 01:42:48,929
The fear of the Lord
is the beginning of wisdom...

2145
01:42:48,962 --> 01:42:51,932
But there the Bible's talking
about a holy fear.

2146
01:42:51,965 --> 01:42:55,668
To me, one of the best places in
the Bible to discern

2147
01:42:55,702 --> 01:42:57,369
what biblical fear is,

2148
01:42:57,403 --> 01:42:59,472
that it's not simply terror,

2149
01:42:59,505 --> 01:43:03,676
is the prophecies of the
coming Messiah, in Isaiah.

2150
01:43:03,710 --> 01:43:05,779
Where we're told in the second
and third verses

2151
01:43:05,811 --> 01:43:07,680
that when Jesus comes,

2152
01:43:07,713 --> 01:43:10,417
He will come
in the fear of the Lord.

2153
01:43:10,449 --> 01:43:12,452
Whatever we think to be the
relationship between

2154
01:43:12,484 --> 01:43:15,621
the Father and the Son-
we know it is perfect love!

2155
01:43:15,654 --> 01:43:17,923
And fear being described there,
with a Son who

2156
01:43:17,957 --> 01:43:19,926
perfectly loves His Father,

2157
01:43:19,958 --> 01:43:22,595
cannot simply mean
"terror of harm,"

2158
01:43:22,628 --> 01:43:25,465
rather it has the notion of
I have full regard,

2159
01:43:25,497 --> 01:43:27,933
proper respect,
reverence and awe

2160
01:43:27,966 --> 01:43:30,336
for all that my
heavenly Father is.

2161
01:43:30,369 --> 01:43:33,273
It's faith working through love

2162
01:43:33,305 --> 01:43:37,009
because of a correct
understanding of God. Now,

2163
01:43:37,042 --> 01:43:40,813
Now, I do believe that in
the early stages of conviction

2164
01:43:41,014 --> 01:43:44,516
God often uses this
motivation of fear,

2165
01:43:44,550 --> 01:43:47,520
but once God moves us
from self-preservation

2166
01:43:47,552 --> 01:43:49,590
in that process of conviction,

2167
01:43:49,855 --> 01:43:54,360
and reveals who He is,
through His son,

2168
01:43:54,394 --> 01:43:57,998
granting faith and repentance,

2169
01:43:58,030 --> 01:44:00,867
through the power of
regeneration-love takes over.

2170
01:44:00,899 --> 01:44:03,869
and love casts out that fear.

2171
01:44:03,903 --> 01:44:07,807
So if their relationship of God
can be described as,

2172
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:09,676
Well, I'm afraid I'm going
to die and go to hell

2173
01:44:09,708 --> 01:44:11,877
so I've got to accept Jesus.

2174
01:44:11,911 --> 01:44:15,881
That tells me they have not
come to see God as He really is.

2175
01:44:15,914 --> 01:44:20,253
That person is still
all about himself.

2176
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:24,891
All men want to go to Heaven.
All men want to avoid hell,

2177
01:44:24,923 --> 01:44:29,796
but it is primarily for self-
idolatry and self-preservation.

2178
01:44:29,828 --> 01:44:31,630
We have to have
a correct understanding

2179
01:44:31,663 --> 01:44:33,800
of the gospel call.

2180
01:44:33,832 --> 01:44:36,735
Today it is very common
for someone to say,

2181
01:44:36,769 --> 01:44:39,306
Do you know you're a sinner?

2182
01:44:39,338 --> 01:44:40,939
And if someone says,
Yes, I know, I'm a sinner.

2183
01:44:40,972 --> 01:44:43,475
Well then, they go
right onto the next question.

2184
01:44:43,509 --> 01:44:46,445
But you see, whether we know
we're a sinner or not

2185
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:49,582
really is no indicator
that God is working

2186
01:44:49,614 --> 01:44:51,650
or that we're being
convicted of our sin.

2187
01:44:51,684 --> 01:44:54,854
The question is not,
Do you know you're a sinner?

2188
01:44:54,886 --> 01:44:57,990
The question is, Has God,
through the gospel,

2189
01:44:58,024 --> 01:45:01,795
so worked in your heart that you
now hate the sin you once loved,

2190
01:45:01,828 --> 01:45:05,732
and you love the righteousness
you once hated?"

2191
01:45:05,765 --> 01:45:07,734
If someone says,
Yeah, I know I'm a sinner.

2192
01:45:07,766 --> 01:45:11,070
Then the question is, Would
you like to go to heaven?

2193
01:45:11,104 --> 01:45:13,873
And I always make
this statement:

2194
01:45:13,905 --> 01:45:15,675
Who doesn't want
to go to heaven?

2195
01:45:15,707 --> 01:45:19,078
As a matter fact,
our entire view

2196
01:45:19,112 --> 01:45:23,082
in sociology and in the realm
of the political is-

2197
01:45:23,115 --> 01:45:24,818
is this-a utopia!

2198
01:45:24,850 --> 01:45:27,686
But Jesus'
fundamental question was,

2199
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:29,556
How do we bring heaven here?

2200
01:45:29,588 --> 01:45:31,990
Everyone wants to live
in a perfect place!

2201
01:45:32,024 --> 01:45:34,494
So the question
in the Gospel call is not,

2202
01:45:34,527 --> 01:45:36,429
Do you want to go to heaven?

2203
01:45:36,462 --> 01:45:40,467
The question in the gospel call
is this: Do you want God?

2204
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:42,935
You see, almost everyone wants
to go to heaven-they just don't

2205
01:45:42,969 --> 01:45:45,971
want a righteous God to be
there when they get there!

2206
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,743
I'm not a Christian
because I'm afraid of hell.

2207
01:45:49,775 --> 01:45:53,712
I'm a Christian because I love
God, who loved me enough

2208
01:45:53,746 --> 01:45:55,582
to save me from hell!

2209
01:45:55,614 --> 01:45:57,483
And it's because we love Him!

2210
01:45:57,516 --> 01:46:01,987
I don't want to be apart
from His love forever.

2211
01:46:02,020 --> 01:46:04,923
I don't want to be separated
from Him in any way

2212
01:46:04,957 --> 01:46:06,793
because I love Him!

2213
01:46:06,826 --> 01:46:08,994
And so the
grace of God, much more than

2214
01:46:09,028 --> 01:46:12,932
the fires of hell, became
the focus of my attention.

2215
01:46:12,965 --> 01:46:17,703
Grace is really
one of the attributes of God!

2216
01:46:17,737 --> 01:46:21,608
Grace is God's undeserved
activity of kindness-

2217
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:24,676
doing for me what I
cannot do for myself.

2218
01:46:24,710 --> 01:46:28,148
I think we all benefit from
God's benevolence,

2219
01:46:28,180 --> 01:46:29,882
in a general way.

2220
01:46:29,916 --> 01:46:33,485
The Bible says He causes
the rain and the sun

2221
01:46:33,519 --> 01:46:35,922
to fall on the just
and the unjust.

2222
01:46:35,954 --> 01:46:41,994
Even Hitler was allowed
to enjoy a beautiful sunset.

2223
01:46:42,028 --> 01:46:44,197
But it's only through
repentance and faith

2224
01:46:44,229 --> 01:46:46,031
in Jesus Christ,

2225
01:46:46,064 --> 01:46:48,902
that a person goes from
being at enmity with God,

2226
01:46:48,935 --> 01:46:52,972
under God's curse,
under God's wrath,

2227
01:46:53,171 --> 01:46:57,109
to a place of safety
and blessing and peace!

2228
01:46:57,510 --> 01:47:00,079
The Bible calls that
"reconciliation."

2229
01:47:00,112 --> 01:47:05,618
That we have been reconciled to
God, while we were His enemies!

2230
01:47:05,650 --> 01:47:07,921
For while we
were still helpless

2231
01:47:07,953 --> 01:47:11,056
at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly.

2232
01:47:11,090 --> 01:47:13,927
For one will hardly die
for a righteous man;

2233
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:18,530
though perhaps for the good man
someone would dare even to die.

2234
01:47:18,564 --> 01:47:21,201
But God demonstrates
His own love toward us

2235
01:47:21,234 --> 01:47:25,138
in that while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us.

2236
01:47:25,171 --> 01:47:30,743
How can God pardon a wicked man
and still be a righteous God?

2237
01:47:30,775 --> 01:47:34,079
Paul answers that question-
he answers this problem,

2238
01:47:34,113 --> 01:47:36,082
in Romans chapter three.

2239
01:47:36,114 --> 01:47:37,817
For all have
sinned and fall short

2240
01:47:37,850 --> 01:47:39,652
of the glory of God,

2241
01:47:39,685 --> 01:47:42,822
being justified as
a gift by His grace

2242
01:47:42,854 --> 01:47:45,757
through the redemption
which is in Christ Jesus.

2243
01:47:45,791 --> 01:47:49,895
Redemption is the payment
of a ransom of a price,

2244
01:47:49,929 --> 01:47:54,801
So that a slave, a criminal,
a prisoner might go free.

2245
01:47:55,067 --> 01:47:58,136
Well, Christ paid that ransom!

2246
01:47:58,170 --> 01:48:00,739
And some people have believed,
wrongly, that somehow

2247
01:48:00,773 --> 01:48:03,009
Christ paid a ransom
to the devil.

2248
01:48:03,042 --> 01:48:04,944
And that's not at all the case!

2249
01:48:04,976 --> 01:48:07,747
The ransom was paid
to the justice of God.

2250
01:48:08,648 --> 01:48:10,884
...whom God displayed publicly

2251
01:48:10,917 --> 01:48:13,987
as a propitiation
in His blood through faith.

2252
01:48:14,020 --> 01:48:17,257
Propitiation
turns back God's wrath.

2253
01:48:17,289 --> 01:48:21,760
It meets God's righteous,
holy demand.

2254
01:48:22,161 --> 01:48:24,998
This was to
demonstrate His righteousness.

2255
01:48:25,030 --> 01:48:27,233
Now why would God
have to do that?

2256
01:48:27,265 --> 01:48:29,268
Well when we look through
human history and see

2257
01:48:29,301 --> 01:48:32,605
God's dealing with men,
especially in the Old Testament,

2258
01:48:32,805 --> 01:48:37,744
we see God forgiving
and saving unrighteous men,

2259
01:48:37,777 --> 01:48:40,012
who deserved death!

2260
01:48:40,046 --> 01:48:42,148
...because in
the forbearance of God

2261
01:48:42,180 --> 01:48:45,150
He passed over the sins
previously committed.

2262
01:48:45,184 --> 01:48:48,021
In the flood
of Noah, Noah should have died!

2263
01:48:48,054 --> 01:48:49,788
He was a sinner.

2264
01:48:49,822 --> 01:48:52,692
God, you called Abraham and
called him your friend

2265
01:48:52,725 --> 01:48:54,027
and yet he was a sinner!

2266
01:48:54,060 --> 01:48:55,995
He did not believe you,
at times.

2267
01:48:56,028 --> 01:48:58,798
He lied about his wife.

2268
01:48:58,831 --> 01:49:01,768
When David
committed the sin of adultery

2269
01:49:01,801 --> 01:49:05,838
and murder, the law said
he was to be stoned.

2270
01:49:06,338 --> 01:49:08,774
That's why David
didn't offer any sacrifice.

2271
01:49:08,807 --> 01:49:11,743
There was no sacrifice
he could offer!

2272
01:49:11,777 --> 01:49:14,646
and yet when he prays
that most beautiful,

2273
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:17,917
repentative prayer of Psalm 51-

2274
01:49:17,949 --> 01:49:19,786
What does he appeal to,

2275
01:49:19,819 --> 01:49:23,089
but the mercy and the
lovingkindness of God?

2276
01:49:23,355 --> 01:49:27,626
And when God exposes David for
his sin by the prophet Nathan,

2277
01:49:27,659 --> 01:49:32,130
Nathan tells him, You'll not
die, God forgives you.

2278
01:49:32,163 --> 01:49:35,068
In that moment, the God of
the Bible appeared

2279
01:49:35,100 --> 01:49:37,069
to be unrighteous.

2280
01:49:37,103 --> 01:49:41,807
Well, how could God
save Noah, Abraham and David?

2281
01:49:41,841 --> 01:49:45,811
because God's Son died for all
of them on Calvary!

2282
01:49:46,112 --> 01:49:47,947
For the
demonstration, I say,

2283
01:49:47,979 --> 01:49:51,049
of His righteousness
at the present time,

2284
01:49:51,082 --> 01:49:54,753
so that He would be just and
the justifier of the one

2285
01:49:54,787 --> 01:49:57,257
who has faith in Jesus.

2286
01:49:57,722 --> 01:49:59,926
Those men in
the Old Testament were saved

2287
01:49:59,958 --> 01:50:03,028
by faith. They were
saved by faith,

2288
01:50:03,061 --> 01:50:06,798
but faith in the
saving work of God!

2289
01:50:06,832 --> 01:50:10,369
The most troubling thing is
when conservative exegetes

2290
01:50:10,403 --> 01:50:13,271
say, with certainty,
"That's what this means.

2291
01:50:13,305 --> 01:50:16,943
That solves the problem!
That solves the crisis!"

2292
01:50:17,208 --> 01:50:21,079
I would just challenge you to
look at the consistent witness

2293
01:50:21,113 --> 01:50:23,383
of the entire Bible, from the
very beginning of the Bible

2294
01:50:23,416 --> 01:50:27,020
it's clear that somebody
has to pay a price for sin.

2295
01:50:27,219 --> 01:50:29,422
Something has to die.
In the Old Testament

2296
01:50:29,454 --> 01:50:32,792
we have the sacrificial system.
The spotless Lamb

2297
01:50:32,824 --> 01:50:36,061
had to give its life
for the sins of Israel.

2298
01:50:36,095 --> 01:50:38,898
So God called
for blood to be shed.

2299
01:50:38,930 --> 01:50:42,268
And when the people trusted in
the shedding of that blood-

2300
01:50:42,301 --> 01:50:44,837
the promise of God for the
forgiveness of their sins,

2301
01:50:44,869 --> 01:50:47,739
they were forgiven. Not because
there was anything about that

2302
01:50:47,773 --> 01:50:49,676
animal's blood
that saved them,

2303
01:50:49,708 --> 01:50:52,010
but they were trusting
in the sacrifice

2304
01:50:52,043 --> 01:50:54,046
that God had provided for them,

2305
01:50:54,079 --> 01:50:57,382
which was a shadow of the
ultimate sacrifice to come!

2306
01:50:57,416 --> 01:51:00,319
There must be an
atonement for us to believe in,

2307
01:51:00,351 --> 01:51:04,189
and that atonement
is the person of Jesus Christ.

2308
01:51:04,222 --> 01:51:05,992
And so what gets
subtly, sort of,

2309
01:51:06,024 --> 01:51:08,094
caught and taught is that

2310
01:51:08,127 --> 01:51:10,997
Jesus rescues you from God.

2311
01:51:11,029 --> 01:51:13,265
There's a God who loves some
people enough

2312
01:51:13,298 --> 01:51:16,036
that He'll save them,
while He burns everybody else.

2313
01:51:16,234 --> 01:51:18,070
That's not really
that good of news!

2314
01:51:18,104 --> 01:51:19,771
Like I could do better!

2315
01:51:19,805 --> 01:51:22,307
But what kind
of God is that,

2316
01:51:22,341 --> 01:51:25,811
that we would need to be
rescued from this God?

2317
01:51:25,845 --> 01:51:31,150
You say that God has saved you.
From what has God saved you?

2318
01:51:31,182 --> 01:51:34,252
We are saved
from God Himself!

2319
01:51:34,286 --> 01:51:36,088
And there's only one who
can save from God

2320
01:51:36,122 --> 01:51:38,224
and that is God, Himself!

2321
01:51:38,256 --> 01:51:40,058
That is, Jesus

2322
01:51:40,091 --> 01:51:43,028
who rescues us from
the wrath to come.

2323
01:51:43,061 --> 01:51:45,497
Salvation is deliverance

2324
01:51:45,530 --> 01:51:48,201
from the wrath of God,
against sin!

2325
01:51:48,234 --> 01:51:49,869
Much more then,

2326
01:51:49,902 --> 01:51:52,505
having now been justified
by His blood,

2327
01:51:52,537 --> 01:51:55,974
we shall be saved from the
wrath of God through Him.

2328
01:51:56,007 --> 01:51:57,309
I like to say it this way:

2329
01:51:57,342 --> 01:52:00,145
God has saved us
from Himself.

2330
01:52:00,179 --> 01:52:03,082
God has saved us by Himself.

2331
01:52:03,114 --> 01:52:06,184
And God has saved us
for Himself.

2332
01:52:06,217 --> 01:52:08,054
How could that God
ever be good?

2333
01:52:08,087 --> 01:52:10,089
How could that God
ever be trusted?

2334
01:52:10,122 --> 01:52:14,094
And how could that
ever be good news?

2335
01:52:14,292 --> 01:52:16,261
I'll never forget
I got a text from my friend,

2336
01:52:16,295 --> 01:52:19,097
Did you see
John Piper's tweet?

2337
01:52:19,131 --> 01:52:21,300
And so I looked it up, myself...

2338
01:52:21,332 --> 01:52:23,335
There was a famous tweet,

2339
01:52:23,368 --> 01:52:25,938
from John Piper, that said,
Farewell Rob Bell.

2340
01:52:25,970 --> 01:52:29,808
And he came under a lot of
criticism for this tweet.

2341
01:52:29,841 --> 01:52:34,780
John Piper is
dismissing another pastor,

2342
01:52:34,979 --> 01:52:38,183
from Christian community?
We're like what does this mean?

2343
01:52:38,484 --> 01:52:41,854
He's asking questions! Like...

2344
01:52:41,886 --> 01:52:43,421
are we not supposed to do that?

2345
01:52:43,454 --> 01:52:46,525
People like
Rachel Held Evans and

2346
01:52:46,559 --> 01:52:49,328
other progressives
said, you know,

2347
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:52,331
He didn't even read the book,
and yet he's

2348
01:52:52,363 --> 01:52:54,266
condemning Rob Bell.

2349
01:52:54,300 --> 01:52:56,235
A lot of the people who seemed

2350
01:52:56,268 --> 01:52:59,404
to have the harshest criticism,
in regards to Rob's book,

2351
01:52:59,438 --> 01:53:01,873
- had not in fact read the book!
- Hmm.

2352
01:53:01,907 --> 01:53:03,810
He never takes
a position in the book.

2353
01:53:03,842 --> 01:53:05,510
He merely poses the question.

2354
01:53:05,543 --> 01:53:07,380
But one thing
that often gets left out of that

2355
01:53:07,412 --> 01:53:10,382
conversation is that there was
a trailer for the book

2356
01:53:10,416 --> 01:53:13,985
in which Rob Bell, basically,
denied the wrath of God.

2357
01:53:14,019 --> 01:53:17,456
He denied core things of the
gospel in asking questions.

2358
01:53:17,488 --> 01:53:21,493
So to say, Well,
he was just asking questions.

2359
01:53:21,527 --> 01:53:24,262
One thing I've seen
over and over again

2360
01:53:24,296 --> 01:53:26,132
in the progressive church

2361
01:53:26,164 --> 01:53:30,202
is that sometimes there's an
answer embedded in the question.

2362
01:53:30,235 --> 01:53:32,371
This is why lots of
people want nothing to do

2363
01:53:32,404 --> 01:53:35,274
with the Christian faith!
They see it as an endless list

2364
01:53:35,306 --> 01:53:38,243
of absurdities and
inconsistencies and they say,

2365
01:53:38,277 --> 01:53:40,279
Why would I ever want
to be a part of that?

2366
01:53:40,311 --> 01:53:43,282
And so that's when questions
actually become statements,

2367
01:53:43,314 --> 01:53:45,250
masquerading as questions.

2368
01:53:45,283 --> 01:53:49,087
and I think that's what
John Piper was responding to.

2369
01:53:50,421 --> 01:53:51,957
Penal
substitutionary atonement

2370
01:53:51,990 --> 01:53:53,626
is something that I used to be

2371
01:53:53,658 --> 01:53:56,862
so unbelievably committed to,

2372
01:53:57,162 --> 01:54:00,934
That I thought it was
the only way to view God.

2373
01:54:01,466 --> 01:54:07,039
The problem is when I started
to actually learn the history...

2374
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:13,178
The payment model
of Jesus' death on the cross,

2375
01:54:13,212 --> 01:54:15,448
traditionally called
penal substitution,

2376
01:54:15,480 --> 01:54:17,550
is a recent development.

2377
01:54:17,582 --> 01:54:20,085
You can find little hints of it
in the early church,

2378
01:54:20,118 --> 01:54:22,889
but it really came to the fore
a thousand years ago,

2379
01:54:22,921 --> 01:54:25,625
halfway in the history
of Christianity.

2380
01:54:25,658 --> 01:54:29,095
and then it became amped up,
even more,

2381
01:54:29,127 --> 01:54:31,029
500 years ago
at the Reformation.

2382
01:54:31,430 --> 01:54:34,500
And so that sent me on a bit of
a search through church history

2383
01:54:34,533 --> 01:54:37,036
because I wanted to know if
what they were saying was true.

2384
01:54:37,069 --> 01:54:40,139
Is this something that
really wasn't a part of

2385
01:54:40,171 --> 01:54:43,208
the earliest form
of Christianity?

2386
01:54:43,242 --> 01:54:45,677
The doctrine
of penal substitution

2387
01:54:45,711 --> 01:54:48,180
really came to its own
in the Reformation

2388
01:54:48,212 --> 01:54:51,082
and post-Reformation era,
but that does not mean

2389
01:54:51,115 --> 01:54:56,255
that it was not there
in seed form, in embryonic form,

2390
01:54:56,287 --> 01:54:58,323
and even in somewhat developed
form earlier in the

2391
01:54:58,356 --> 01:55:02,194
history of the church.
Historical theology does

2392
01:55:02,226 --> 01:55:04,262
does properly develop over time,

2393
01:55:04,296 --> 01:55:06,465
but we have to understand
what we mean by that.

2394
01:55:06,497 --> 01:55:09,134
Everything is given to us
in the scripture,

2395
01:55:09,167 --> 01:55:13,271
Yet, as the church confronts
various challenges

2396
01:55:13,305 --> 01:55:17,543
and false teaching, it has
to learn to become precise.

2397
01:55:17,576 --> 01:55:19,412
This happened in
the doctrine of the Trinity.

2398
01:55:19,444 --> 01:55:22,380
The same thing is true
in the atonement.

2399
01:55:22,413 --> 01:55:25,483
The atonement
wasn't attacked early on,

2400
01:55:25,516 --> 01:55:28,220
but as time went on,
there had to become more

2401
01:55:28,252 --> 01:55:30,588
clarification and precision
given to

2402
01:55:30,622 --> 01:55:33,125
the nature of the cross.

2403
01:55:33,158 --> 01:55:34,427
And so when we get to

2404
01:55:34,460 --> 01:55:36,127
the discussion of
the church fathers,

2405
01:55:36,161 --> 01:55:37,730
we want to ask
the question, not

2406
01:55:37,762 --> 01:55:39,532
"Do they have a full developed
penal substitutionary

2407
01:55:39,564 --> 01:55:41,433
theory of the atonement?"
We want to ask,

2408
01:55:41,466 --> 01:55:44,202
Do they talk about the
atonement having a

2409
01:55:44,235 --> 01:55:47,006
penal and substitutionary
aspect to it?

2410
01:55:47,038 --> 01:55:50,042
And there the answer's
actually really easy!

2411
01:55:50,408 --> 01:55:54,112
In the early church there were
a couple other theories,

2412
01:55:54,145 --> 01:55:57,048
versions, understandings,
interpretations,

2413
01:55:57,082 --> 01:55:58,684
of Jesus' death on the cross.

2414
01:55:58,716 --> 01:56:03,154
that were really popular.
The most popular one,

2415
01:56:03,188 --> 01:56:05,524
in first thousand years,
was what I call

2416
01:56:05,556 --> 01:56:07,460
"the victory theory."

2417
01:56:07,493 --> 01:56:09,295
There is a
dominant theme in a lot of the

2418
01:56:09,328 --> 01:56:12,064
church fathers about the
cross of Christ

2419
01:56:12,096 --> 01:56:14,399
and His resurrection, and that
is what we sometimes call

2420
01:56:14,432 --> 01:56:16,135
"Christus Victor."
Or at least,

2421
01:56:16,167 --> 01:56:18,003
that's what modern
scholars call it.

2422
01:56:18,037 --> 01:56:20,039
And this is the view,
a classic view,

2423
01:56:20,072 --> 01:56:22,173
that Jesus had victory over sin,

2424
01:56:22,207 --> 01:56:25,478
over death and over the devil,
on the cross.

2425
01:56:25,511 --> 01:56:28,080
And we find this emphasis
in scripture, as well,

2426
01:56:28,113 --> 01:56:30,615
about this victory that
conquered Satan,

2427
01:56:30,649 --> 01:56:33,386
not just our sin.
Hebrews speaks about it:

2428
01:56:33,418 --> 01:56:36,421
Since therefore the children
share in flesh and blood,

2429
01:56:36,454 --> 01:56:39,492
he himself also
partook of the same things,

2430
01:56:39,524 --> 01:56:41,793
that through death he might
destroy the one who has

2431
01:56:41,827 --> 01:56:44,497
power over death,
that is the devil,

2432
01:56:44,529 --> 01:56:47,065
and deliver all those who
through fear of death

2433
01:56:47,099 --> 01:56:50,069
were subject to
lifelong slavery."

2434
01:56:50,101 --> 01:56:53,439
This is a biblical view,
this concept of Jesus as

2435
01:56:53,471 --> 01:56:55,273
the victorious one.

2436
01:56:55,306 --> 01:56:58,243
But to suggest that
they held this view

2437
01:56:58,277 --> 01:57:00,779
as some sort of contradiction of
penal substitution

2438
01:57:00,813 --> 01:57:02,648
is simply not true!

2439
01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:05,350
See, this is why this penal
substitutionary atonement theory

2440
01:57:05,384 --> 01:57:07,252
begins with Calvin.
That's where it comes from!

2441
01:57:07,286 --> 01:57:10,256
It's 500 years old.
It's a product of modernity.

2442
01:57:10,288 --> 01:57:12,490
To demonstrate
this, let me share a quote from

2443
01:57:12,524 --> 01:57:14,727
Eusebius of Caesarea.
And this guy

2444
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:16,662
lived 1000 years
before Calvin.

2445
01:57:16,694 --> 01:57:19,064
and you just want to listen to
this quote for "penal" and

2446
01:57:19,097 --> 01:57:21,801
"substitutionary" language.
Here it is:

2447
01:57:21,833 --> 01:57:25,403
Thus, the Lamb of God, that
taketh away the sin of the world

2448
01:57:25,436 --> 01:57:28,774
became a curse on our behalf.

2449
01:57:28,806 --> 01:57:32,677
He then stated, 'And the Lamb
of God not only did this,

2450
01:57:32,711 --> 01:57:36,148
but was chastised on our behalf
and suffered

2451
01:57:36,180 --> 01:57:39,417
a penalty He did not owe,
but which we owed because of

2452
01:57:39,451 --> 01:57:41,319
the multitude of our sins;

2453
01:57:41,353 --> 01:57:44,657
and so He became the cause
of the forgiveness of our sins,

2454
01:57:44,689 --> 01:57:47,460
because He received
death for us,

2455
01:57:47,493 --> 01:57:50,162
and transferred to Himself

2456
01:57:50,194 --> 01:57:52,697
the scourging, the insults,
and the dishonor,

2457
01:57:52,730 --> 01:57:56,301
which were due to us,
and drew down upon Himself

2458
01:57:56,335 --> 01:57:59,704
the appointed curse,
being made a curse for us.'"

2459
01:57:59,738 --> 01:58:03,576
And so the idea
that that theme of substitution

2460
01:58:03,609 --> 01:58:06,145
is absent from
early Christianity

2461
01:58:06,177 --> 01:58:08,180
is demonstrably false!

2462
01:58:08,212 --> 01:58:10,416
One of the biblical words used
to talk about the atonement

2463
01:58:10,448 --> 01:58:13,318
is "ransom." So it shouldn't
surprise us that we have the

2464
01:58:13,351 --> 01:58:15,186
"ransom theory"
of the atonement.

2465
01:58:15,220 --> 01:58:18,324
And in the early church the
ransom theory is very prominent.

2466
01:58:18,356 --> 01:58:20,426
Jesus, in His
own words, said,

2467
01:58:20,458 --> 01:58:24,195
For the Son of Man has come
not to be served, but to serve,

2468
01:58:24,229 --> 01:58:28,833
and to give His life
a ransom for many.

2469
01:58:28,867 --> 01:58:31,337
Where the ransom theory
started to go wrong

2470
01:58:31,369 --> 01:58:34,672
was this idea crept into
the conversation

2471
01:58:34,706 --> 01:58:37,143
that the ransom was
paid to Satan! And that just

2472
01:58:37,176 --> 01:58:38,744
doesn't make sense!
And it almost puts

2473
01:58:38,777 --> 01:58:40,479
God at the mercy of Satan.

2474
01:58:40,511 --> 01:58:44,449
But if we understand "ransom"
as a satisfaction

2475
01:58:44,483 --> 01:58:46,252
of God's justice,

2476
01:58:46,284 --> 01:58:49,154
well we're very close
to the substitutionary theory!

2477
01:58:49,188 --> 01:58:50,823
But what they
don't want to do, is they don't

2478
01:58:50,855 --> 01:58:54,592
want to say, "At the center,
at the hub, at the very core

2479
01:58:54,626 --> 01:58:58,530
of the death of Jesus Christ
is substitution,

2480
01:58:58,564 --> 01:59:01,233
penalty substitution."

2481
01:59:01,265 --> 01:59:03,668
There are
substitutionary themes in

2482
01:59:03,702 --> 01:59:08,373
various versions of the
atonement. No question about it!

2483
01:59:08,407 --> 01:59:14,579
It doesn't mean, however,
that God is demanding a payment!

2484
01:59:15,680 --> 01:59:17,815
The book and movie
The Chronicles of Narnia:

2485
01:59:17,849 --> 01:59:19,385
The Lion, the Witch
and the Wardrobe,

2486
01:59:19,417 --> 01:59:21,586
the C. S. Lewis classic,
we have a picture

2487
01:59:21,619 --> 01:59:24,623
of what may be
that ransom to the devil view.

2488
01:59:24,823 --> 01:59:28,661
Where Aslan makes a deal
with the White Witch.

2489
01:59:28,694 --> 01:59:30,196
You know, Aslan
representing Jesus.

2490
01:59:30,229 --> 01:59:31,797
The White Witch
representing Satan.

2491
01:59:31,829 --> 01:59:35,600
He has to buy Edmund,
from the devil,

2492
01:59:35,634 --> 01:59:37,336
so that he gives his own life.

2493
01:59:37,368 --> 01:59:40,505
The White Witch thinking
she's conquered Aslan,

2494
01:59:40,538 --> 01:59:42,340
is like, "Now I'm going to
just dominate. I've killed him.

2495
01:59:42,373 --> 01:59:44,643
I can take over."
But it's a big trick!

2496
01:59:44,676 --> 01:59:46,412
And so after Aslan is slain

2497
01:59:46,444 --> 01:59:49,414
he uses the "older law"
to overcome the devil

2498
01:59:49,448 --> 01:59:50,950
and to claim victory.

2499
01:59:50,983 --> 01:59:53,552
So now he has Edmund
and the victory.

2500
01:59:53,585 --> 01:59:57,489
Today this view
that Jesus paid a debt to Satan

2501
01:59:57,521 --> 01:59:59,425
is taught by many
in the Word of Faith,

2502
01:59:59,457 --> 02:00:01,527
New Apostolic Reformation
movement.

2503
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:04,964
They believe in what's called
the "spiritual death of Jesus."

2504
02:00:04,997 --> 02:00:07,932
They believe that Jesus
died two deaths-

2505
02:00:07,966 --> 02:00:10,803
one physical, on the cross,
and one spiritual.

2506
02:00:11,369 --> 02:00:14,405
Now Jesus went to hell,

2507
02:00:14,439 --> 02:00:17,610
suffered the depth of hell,
that no man has ever suffered!

2508
02:00:17,842 --> 02:00:20,979
That when Jesus died on the
cross, then He went to hell!

2509
02:00:21,380 --> 02:00:24,483
Jesus goes to hell.
I believe He went to Hades.

2510
02:00:24,515 --> 02:00:27,685
He went down and descended
into the depths of the earth,

2511
02:00:27,719 --> 02:00:30,523
for three days, and
He pays for the sin of mankind.

2512
02:00:30,788 --> 02:00:34,559
And He suffered,
was tortured by the demons...

2513
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:38,530
The demons attacked Him in hell
and trying to annihilate Him,

2514
02:00:38,563 --> 02:00:41,934
and he was in that pit,
just emaciated!

2515
02:00:42,367 --> 02:00:43,836
What they are teaching

2516
02:00:43,868 --> 02:00:46,304
is that Jesus' death on
the cross didn't save us.

2517
02:00:46,337 --> 02:00:48,340
What happened was
He went into hell

2518
02:00:48,372 --> 02:00:50,675
and that's where
He won our salvation!

2519
02:00:50,708 --> 02:00:52,644
but that is not what
the scripture says,

2520
02:00:52,677 --> 02:00:56,347
and that's not what Jesus meant
when He said, It is... What?

2521
02:00:56,381 --> 02:00:57,916
Finished.

2522
02:00:57,948 --> 02:01:00,018
When you carry
this doctrine out to its

2523
02:01:00,051 --> 02:01:03,822
logical conclusion,
it's a very heretical doctrine

2524
02:01:03,854 --> 02:01:06,958
because if Jesus
died spiritually

2525
02:01:07,458 --> 02:01:09,827
then He never was God,
to begin with!

2526
02:01:09,860 --> 02:01:13,666
because God cannot
cease to be God!

2527
02:01:13,698 --> 02:01:16,868
One of the early figures who
speaks into this greatly

2528
02:01:16,902 --> 02:01:18,636
is Anselm.

2529
02:01:18,670 --> 02:01:20,572
Anselm was a theologian

2530
02:01:20,604 --> 02:01:24,009
and he later became
Archbishop of Canterbury.

2531
02:01:24,042 --> 02:01:25,978
And particularly,
most wonderfully,

2532
02:01:26,011 --> 02:01:27,613
he wrote on the atonement

2533
02:01:27,645 --> 02:01:30,349
in a book called
Why the God Man?

2534
02:01:30,381 --> 02:01:33,585
One of the things
that Anselm wanted to do

2535
02:01:33,618 --> 02:01:37,623
is to reassert that,
no the debt

2536
02:01:37,655 --> 02:01:40,792
was owed to God,
not to Satan.

2537
02:01:40,826 --> 02:01:42,761
The one who
destroys both soul and body

2538
02:01:42,793 --> 02:01:45,096
in hell is not Satan. The one
who destroys soul and body

2539
02:01:45,130 --> 02:01:49,402
in hell is God!
The judge is God.

2540
02:01:49,768 --> 02:01:52,471
There's another version
that came along

2541
02:01:52,503 --> 02:01:56,341
about the same time
as the "payment theory,"

2542
02:01:56,375 --> 02:01:59,110
and it was developed
by a theologian

2543
02:01:59,144 --> 02:02:01,380
named Peter Abelard,

2544
02:02:01,412 --> 02:02:03,648
who said everything
about God is love,

2545
02:02:03,681 --> 02:02:06,351
and so everything in the
crucifixion of Jesus

2546
02:02:06,385 --> 02:02:08,820
must be love!

2547
02:02:08,854 --> 02:02:12,458
It has to be, ultimately,
about love.

2548
02:02:12,490 --> 02:02:14,460
And so I call it the
"magnet theory."

2549
02:02:14,493 --> 02:02:16,795
Others have called it
the "moral influence theory."

2550
02:02:16,828 --> 02:02:21,633
And what Abelard argued is that
when Jesus hangs on the cross,

2551
02:02:21,666 --> 02:02:26,404
He's like a massive magnet.
It's an act of such overwhelming

2552
02:02:26,438 --> 02:02:32,144
sacrificial love, that He draws
people into Himself by that act.

2553
02:02:32,176 --> 02:02:35,613
Then it ties right back
into Jesus' Last Supper,

2554
02:02:35,646 --> 02:02:38,484
where He washes the
disciples' feet and says,

2555
02:02:38,516 --> 02:02:43,956
I've set an example for you.
Now go do this for others.

2556
02:02:43,988 --> 02:02:45,923
There was
an earlier theologian,

2557
02:02:45,957 --> 02:02:48,727
in the early 20th century, James
Denny, who used the example of

2558
02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:50,929
of a man sitting on
the end of a pier

2559
02:02:50,962 --> 02:02:53,699
and falling into the water,
and not being able to swim.

2560
02:02:53,731 --> 02:02:56,402
Somebody runs and jumps off the
pier and saves him,

2561
02:02:56,435 --> 02:02:59,905
and brings him out! And in that,
risks his own life and-

2562
02:02:59,938 --> 02:03:02,074
and finally, actually, himself
ends up drowning,

2563
02:03:02,106 --> 02:03:04,009
but saving the
other man's life!

2564
02:03:04,042 --> 02:03:05,878
Well he's accomplished
something,

2565
02:03:05,911 --> 02:03:07,813
even though it was at
the cost of his own life.

2566
02:03:07,845 --> 02:03:11,716
He's accomplished saving that
man who was in danger.

2567
02:03:11,750 --> 02:03:13,484
What if, on the other hand,
somebody's sitting

2568
02:03:13,518 --> 02:03:15,554
on the end of the pier,
perfectly fine,

2569
02:03:15,587 --> 02:03:17,523
not falling into the water,

2570
02:03:17,555 --> 02:03:19,657
and some guy comes running along
down the pier saying,

2571
02:03:19,690 --> 02:03:23,095
I'm going to show you how much
I love you by dying for you!"

2572
02:03:23,127 --> 02:03:26,764
And jumping in the water
and just drowning!

2573
02:03:26,797 --> 02:03:29,867
Well that death doesn't
show anything,

2574
02:03:29,900 --> 02:03:31,603
because it doesn't
accomplish anything!

2575
02:03:31,636 --> 02:03:34,006
In the first example
it accomplished

2576
02:03:34,038 --> 02:03:36,608
the saving of that man's life,
and therefore it showed

2577
02:03:36,640 --> 02:03:38,844
a self-sacrificial love.

2578
02:03:38,877 --> 02:03:40,879
In the second example it
doesn't accomplish anything

2579
02:03:40,912 --> 02:03:43,048
and therefore doesn't show
anything at all!

2580
02:03:43,081 --> 02:03:45,918
Well I think that's the problem
with a lot of these other ideas

2581
02:03:45,951 --> 02:03:50,122
of the atonement when they try
to stand without substitution.

2582
02:03:50,154 --> 02:03:54,826
So none of the other images
work, if that one isn't true!

2583
02:03:54,859 --> 02:03:57,528
It's the most fundamental
of them all.

2584
02:03:57,561 --> 02:04:00,131
It's the most central of them.
You take that out-

2585
02:04:00,164 --> 02:04:03,001
it's like "Jenga"
- everything else falls down!

2586
02:04:03,033 --> 02:04:06,671
The fallacy is to claim

2587
02:04:06,704 --> 02:04:09,140
that one version of the
atonement is s dominant!

2588
02:04:09,173 --> 02:04:10,809
That's the fallacy!

2589
02:04:10,841 --> 02:04:13,545
His substitution, in our place,

2590
02:04:13,578 --> 02:04:15,948
is essential for all those other

2591
02:04:15,980 --> 02:04:18,050
beautiful images in
the New Testament

2592
02:04:18,082 --> 02:04:21,786
to have any meaning
or coherence at all.

2593
02:04:24,256 --> 02:04:25,923
There is a
constant stream

2594
02:04:25,957 --> 02:04:28,260
of misrepresentations,
strawman arguments,

2595
02:04:28,292 --> 02:04:30,061
against penal substitution.

2596
02:04:30,095 --> 02:04:32,664
Hey! God is less
grumpy 'cause of Jesus!

2597
02:04:32,697 --> 02:04:36,635
Atonement theory in 17 seconds!
And much more...

2598
02:04:36,667 --> 02:04:39,637
Others say that
penal substitution requires

2599
02:04:39,671 --> 02:04:42,574
we view God like a pagan deity,

2600
02:04:42,606 --> 02:04:46,677
who is mollified by throwing
a virgin into a volcano.

2601
02:04:46,711 --> 02:04:49,581
The God
who is mollified by

2602
02:04:49,613 --> 02:04:51,549
throwing the virgin
in the volcano,

2603
02:04:51,582 --> 02:04:55,820
or the God who is mollified by
His Son being nailed to a tree,

2604
02:04:55,854 --> 02:04:58,155
is not the "Abba" of Jesus!

2605
02:04:58,189 --> 02:05:01,193
Brian Zahnd is a pastor in
Missouri, who wrote a book

2606
02:05:01,225 --> 02:05:02,994
called, Sinners in the
Hands of a Loving God

2607
02:05:03,028 --> 02:05:05,797
and what's clear from his book
is that he hates

2608
02:05:05,829 --> 02:05:08,065
penal substitution-He thinks
it's a terrible evil,

2609
02:05:08,099 --> 02:05:09,868
evil doctrine!

2610
02:05:09,900 --> 02:05:12,104
But what's also clear from
his book, is that he never

2611
02:05:12,136 --> 02:05:14,605
actually interacts
with penal substitution!

2612
02:05:14,639 --> 02:05:17,876
He handles strawman and
misrepresentations on every page

2613
02:05:17,908 --> 02:05:20,679
and never engages
with the biblical doctrine!

2614
02:05:20,712 --> 02:05:22,748
Some years ago, I wrote a book

2615
02:05:22,780 --> 02:05:24,949
called, The Lost
Message of Jesus.

2616
02:05:24,983 --> 02:05:29,688
In it I said, "The cross is not
a form of 'cosmic child abuse.'

2617
02:05:29,720 --> 02:05:32,790
Vengeful father punishing
his son for an offence

2618
02:05:32,823 --> 02:05:34,893
he didn't commit!"

2619
02:05:34,926 --> 02:05:39,164
So, there's a story about a
father, a son, and a train, that-

2620
02:05:39,197 --> 02:05:42,801
this is often used in youth
groups to illustrate the gospel.

2621
02:05:42,833 --> 02:05:44,702
It goes like this:

2622
02:05:44,735 --> 02:05:48,006
there's a dad who's a switch
operator on a railroad tracks,

2623
02:05:48,038 --> 02:05:50,108
and his switch house
is way up on a hill,

2624
02:05:50,140 --> 02:05:52,610
overlooking the bridge.

2625
02:05:52,644 --> 02:05:55,581
And so he
brings his son to work one day,

2626
02:05:55,613 --> 02:05:57,815
and his son is fishing
near the tracks

2627
02:05:57,849 --> 02:06:00,719
while he is operating the
drawbridge, and,

2628
02:06:00,752 --> 02:06:02,754
you know, this drawbridge
allows the ships to...

2629
02:06:02,787 --> 02:06:05,123
to go back and forth
underneath it.

2630
02:06:05,155 --> 02:06:08,793
And so, while the father
is away for a moment,

2631
02:06:08,827 --> 02:06:11,896
the son notices that
there's a train approaching.

2632
02:06:11,930 --> 02:06:15,801
And so, he tries to warn his
father, but he can't find him.

2633
02:06:15,833 --> 02:06:19,938
And so, the son attempts to
lower the bridge himself,

2634
02:06:19,970 --> 02:06:23,307
but he falls into the gears
of the drawbridge.

2635
02:06:23,341 --> 02:06:26,912
And so, this leaves the father
with this horrible decision.

2636
02:06:26,944 --> 02:06:29,347
He's... if he lowers
the drawbridge,

2637
02:06:29,381 --> 02:06:32,818
then the passengers of
the train will be saved,

2638
02:06:32,850 --> 02:06:35,319
but it will kill his son.

2639
02:06:35,353 --> 02:06:37,288
But if he chooses to
save his son,

2640
02:06:37,322 --> 02:06:39,725
then the train will actually
derail, and then

2641
02:06:39,757 --> 02:06:42,693
all the passengers on
the train will die.

2642
02:06:42,726 --> 02:06:46,631
And so, the father ends up
choosing to lower the bridge,

2643
02:06:46,664 --> 02:06:50,167
which saves the passengers
on the train, but

2644
02:06:50,201 --> 02:06:54,872
but kills his son.
His son is crushed in the gears.

2645
02:06:55,239 --> 02:06:57,009
And then, if the
story's being told by a

2646
02:06:57,042 --> 02:06:59,211
youth pastor who really wants
to... really wants to

2647
02:06:59,243 --> 02:07:01,380
twist the knife,
he'll say,

2648
02:07:01,412 --> 02:07:04,215
And as he looked in the
windows of the train,

2649
02:07:04,248 --> 02:07:07,351
there were people gambling, and
drinking, and fornicating."

2650
02:07:07,385 --> 02:07:10,122
And like,
"They didn't even know

2651
02:07:10,154 --> 02:07:13,791
the sacrifice that had just been
made to cause them to, you know,

2652
02:07:13,824 --> 02:07:16,927
survive-to allow them to live!"

2653
02:07:16,961 --> 02:07:19,998
It's a very
powerful, emotional image,

2654
02:07:20,030 --> 02:07:22,000
and when it's used,
some people have said,

2655
02:07:22,033 --> 02:07:24,303
"Now that's a perfect example
of what I mean by the

2656
02:07:24,703 --> 02:07:29,274
abusive nature of this teaching
of penal substitution

2657
02:07:29,306 --> 02:07:31,342
in the death of Christ."

2658
02:07:31,376 --> 02:07:33,744
To which I go, well,
that shows the limitation

2659
02:07:33,778 --> 02:07:35,347
of our illustrations!

2660
02:07:35,380 --> 02:07:37,416
But particularly abhorrent

2661
02:07:37,448 --> 02:07:39,884
is the penal substitutionary
atonement theory

2662
02:07:39,917 --> 02:07:43,888
that turns the Father of Jesus
into a pagan deity

2663
02:07:43,921 --> 02:07:47,992
who can only be placated by the
barbarism of child sacrifice-

2664
02:07:48,025 --> 02:07:49,862
and this will not do!

2665
02:07:50,060 --> 02:07:53,798
But what it completely misses,
is Christ's own

2666
02:07:53,832 --> 02:07:56,068
voluntary laying down
of His life!

2667
02:07:56,100 --> 02:08:00,104
He was not like the little
child, trapped there unwittingly,

2668
02:08:00,137 --> 02:08:03,140
you know, having his life
sacrificed by his father

2669
02:08:03,173 --> 02:08:04,775
for the good of strangers.

2670
02:08:04,809 --> 02:08:06,778
But what they're
forgetting is that

2671
02:08:06,810 --> 02:08:08,913
God is triune...

2672
02:08:08,947 --> 02:08:12,050
that the Father, and the Son,
and the Spirit-

2673
02:08:12,082 --> 02:08:14,251
they're all of one essence.

2674
02:08:14,284 --> 02:08:16,921
And because they're
all of one essence,

2675
02:08:16,954 --> 02:08:19,824
they all agree

2676
02:08:20,225 --> 02:08:22,761
in terms of motivation
for the cross.

2677
02:08:22,793 --> 02:08:26,431
It would be
wrong to suggest that, um,

2678
02:08:27,097 --> 02:08:32,770
the Lord Jesus is being
subjected to a punishment

2679
02:08:32,804 --> 02:08:34,905
for which He was unwilling.

2680
02:08:34,939 --> 02:08:38,176
Jesus says in
the Gospel of John,

2681
02:08:38,208 --> 02:08:40,211
Nobody takes my life,

2682
02:08:40,244 --> 02:08:42,780
I lay it down willfully.
And He says,

2683
02:08:42,814 --> 02:08:44,816
If I have the power
to lay it down,

2684
02:08:44,849 --> 02:08:46,952
and he says, I also have
the power, the authority,

2685
02:08:46,984 --> 02:08:48,252
to take it up again.

2686
02:08:49,988 --> 02:08:54,259
Or, that He in turn was seeking
to coerce the Father

2687
02:08:54,292 --> 02:08:59,064
to display His love in a way
that would be-if you like-

2688
02:08:59,096 --> 02:09:00,831
breaking new territory.

2689
02:09:00,864 --> 02:09:04,001
It makes God a
vindictive monster!

2690
02:09:04,034 --> 02:09:08,072
Does God really love me,
or has He simply been paid off?

2691
02:09:08,105 --> 02:09:12,310
The Bible is so helpful to us
if we just read it, you know?

2692
02:09:12,543 --> 02:09:15,380
That, uh, the most famous
verse in the Bible

2693
02:09:15,412 --> 02:09:19,383
explains the magnificence
of a love of God, you know,

2694
02:09:19,417 --> 02:09:23,387
John 3:16: "...that He
so loved that He gave..."

2695
02:09:23,421 --> 02:09:25,356
Jesus did not die on the cross

2696
02:09:25,390 --> 02:09:27,893
so that the Father
would love us.

2697
02:09:28,091 --> 02:09:31,896
Jesus died on the cross
because the Father loves us!

2698
02:09:32,162 --> 02:09:35,866
The scripture is very clear that
to understand Jesus correctly,

2699
02:09:35,899 --> 02:09:39,003
we have to understand that
He is the Son of God

2700
02:09:39,037 --> 02:09:40,539
from all eternity!

2701
02:09:40,572 --> 02:09:42,807
We have a
Trinitarian God:

2702
02:09:42,841 --> 02:09:46,411
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
equal in rank, and authority,

2703
02:09:46,444 --> 02:09:49,014
and power, and equally God.

2704
02:09:49,046 --> 02:09:52,283
And our plan of salvation
flowed out of their love

2705
02:09:52,317 --> 02:09:55,453
or one another, so we should not
at all picture a-

2706
02:09:55,485 --> 02:09:59,456
a flailing Son who's
turning from a vengeful Father.

2707
02:09:59,489 --> 02:10:02,960
He's fully God
with the Father and Spirit,

2708
02:10:02,993 --> 02:10:06,564
and at a point in time,
as John's gospel tells us,

2709
02:10:06,597 --> 02:10:10,402
that the Son of God,
"the Word became flesh."

2710
02:10:10,435 --> 02:10:14,172
And what this means is that
the Son of God added to

2711
02:10:14,204 --> 02:10:18,475
His divine nature, a second
nature, a human nature.

2712
02:10:18,509 --> 02:10:22,012
so that we can really say that
in the Son of God,

2713
02:10:22,046 --> 02:10:26,351
God Himself is taking
His own righteous requirements

2714
02:10:26,384 --> 02:10:29,854
upon Himself in our place!

2715
02:10:30,121 --> 02:10:33,591
God's justice was
satisfied by God!

2716
02:10:33,625 --> 02:10:37,362
He absorbed, as God, the
punishment that we deserved.

2717
02:10:37,662 --> 02:10:39,530
So, when someone calls the
doctrine of penal

2718
02:10:39,564 --> 02:10:42,534
substitutionary atonement
"divine child abuse,"

2719
02:10:42,567 --> 02:10:45,270
they're failing to make
that distinction that

2720
02:10:45,302 --> 02:10:48,439
Jesus Christ was God in the
flesh, laying down His life

2721
02:10:48,472 --> 02:10:50,242
intentionally!

2722
02:10:50,274 --> 02:10:54,211
That's not child abuse!
That is a hero of the story

2723
02:10:54,244 --> 02:10:57,515
taking the cross on as a
means of saving His people!

2724
02:10:57,547 --> 02:10:59,451
And, what they're really
criticizing is just a

2725
02:10:59,484 --> 02:11:02,654
weak caricature
of the doctrine itself.

2726
02:11:02,686 --> 02:11:06,390
It is a perfect design

2727
02:11:06,423 --> 02:11:08,860
that is Trinitarian
in nature,

2728
02:11:09,193 --> 02:11:13,632
where each member of the
Trinity voluntarily and freely

2729
02:11:13,664 --> 02:11:15,533
does their part.

2730
02:11:15,565 --> 02:11:18,369
I love how Jesus,
in John chapter 17,

2731
02:11:18,403 --> 02:11:23,208
repeatedly refers to those
whom the Father gave to Him.

2732
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:27,311
And the glory that He had
with the Father in eternity,

2733
02:11:27,345 --> 02:11:30,582
this glory that is now
going to be revealed.

2734
02:11:30,614 --> 02:11:35,619
This is referred to in theology
as the "covenant of redemption."

2735
02:11:35,653 --> 02:11:37,689
This is a
manifestation

2736
02:11:37,721 --> 02:11:40,190
of the love of the Father,
the love of the Son,

2737
02:11:40,224 --> 02:11:42,027
and the love of the Spirit.

2738
02:11:42,060 --> 02:11:44,529
The idea is
the Father loved the Son,

2739
02:11:44,561 --> 02:11:47,399
and He expressed
His love for the Son

2740
02:11:47,431 --> 02:11:51,603
by bequeathing a people
to the Son in eternity past.

2741
02:11:51,636 --> 02:11:53,571
And when the Father sends,

2742
02:11:53,604 --> 02:11:57,542
He knows in that sending
what He's giving up!

2743
02:11:57,574 --> 02:12:01,211
The Son
responds in love to the Father

2744
02:12:01,244 --> 02:12:05,349
by dying to redeem the people
whom the Father gave to Him.

2745
02:12:05,382 --> 02:12:08,485
And the Son
voluntarily comes

2746
02:12:08,519 --> 02:12:11,690
out of love for the Father,
out of love for this people!

2747
02:12:12,256 --> 02:12:15,327
And the Spirit,
the personification of the love

2748
02:12:15,359 --> 02:12:19,096
between the Father and the Son,
actually applies redemption

2749
02:12:19,130 --> 02:12:21,733
to all those for
whom Christ died.

2750
02:12:21,765 --> 02:12:27,671
And so, my salvation really is
part of a bigger expression

2751
02:12:27,704 --> 02:12:30,675
of the love that
God has for God!

2752
02:12:30,707 --> 02:12:34,244
All this construct creating
contradiction between

2753
02:12:34,278 --> 02:12:37,716
the persons of the Trinity
is just the work of the devil.

2754
02:12:37,748 --> 02:12:41,086
This is the doctrine
of Christianity!

2755
02:12:41,118 --> 02:12:43,988
This is the doctrine that
separates Christianity

2756
02:12:44,021 --> 02:12:48,059
from every other
religion in the world!

2757
02:12:50,328 --> 02:12:52,464
At the end of
the Reformation era,

2758
02:12:52,497 --> 02:12:56,434
there arose a whole viewpoint
known as Socinianism.

2759
02:12:56,466 --> 02:12:59,670
Socinianism is really going
back to earlier heresies.

2760
02:12:59,703 --> 02:13:02,306
It denied the doctrine
of the Trinity, and of course

2761
02:13:02,340 --> 02:13:07,078
denied the deity of the Son.
It denied penal substitution.

2762
02:13:07,110 --> 02:13:11,215
It ultimately argued
that God is a Unitarian God,

2763
02:13:11,248 --> 02:13:13,083
not Trinitarian,

2764
02:13:13,117 --> 02:13:16,721
that God is simply able to
forgive sins without any kind

2765
02:13:16,753 --> 02:13:19,591
of atonement or payment for sin.

2766
02:13:19,623 --> 02:13:21,492
But this was their argument:

2767
02:13:21,525 --> 02:13:25,029
"If God demands a payment,
then He isn't really forgiving.

2768
02:13:25,063 --> 02:13:27,766
If He forgives, He shouldn't
demand a payment!

2769
02:13:27,798 --> 02:13:30,467
You can either have sins
forgiven or paid for,

2770
02:13:30,501 --> 02:13:32,170
but not both!"

2771
02:13:33,837 --> 02:13:39,043
I do not deny that there is
a substitutionary component

2772
02:13:39,077 --> 02:13:41,311
in Jesus' death on the cross.

2773
02:13:41,345 --> 02:13:44,516
Paul writes about it,
and I'm not denying it!

2774
02:13:45,082 --> 02:13:48,152
I'm just saying God did not say,

2775
02:13:48,185 --> 02:13:51,255
I need a pound of flesh
from those people,

2776
02:13:51,288 --> 02:13:55,326
but their pounds of flesh
aren't good enough, holy enough,

2777
02:13:55,359 --> 02:13:56,828
heavy enough, or whatever.

2778
02:13:56,860 --> 02:13:59,663
I need Jesus! I need a
divine pound of flesh!

2779
02:13:59,697 --> 02:14:03,467
I mean, I had this image of God
going like, Okay, listen.

2780
02:14:03,501 --> 02:14:05,369
This guy's worthy of death.

2781
02:14:05,403 --> 02:14:07,204
I don't... I don't care if I
kill him, I just...

2782
02:14:07,238 --> 02:14:08,840
I m gonna kill somebody!

2783
02:14:08,872 --> 02:14:10,607
I just gotta kill somebody
out there! And Jesus goes,

2784
02:14:10,640 --> 02:14:12,076
You can kill me!
And he goes, Oh, okay!

2785
02:14:12,109 --> 02:14:13,478
As long as I get
to kill somebody!

2786
02:14:13,511 --> 02:14:15,346
And the obvious
question is, like,

2787
02:14:15,378 --> 02:14:19,117
"Why does God need to kill
anybody in order to forgive?"

2788
02:14:19,317 --> 02:14:21,185
That's the Socinian
argument, and

2789
02:14:21,219 --> 02:14:24,855
on the face of it, it seems to
appeal to human reason.

2790
02:14:24,889 --> 02:14:28,793
And you might say, "Well,
so what's wrong with that argument?"

2791
02:14:28,826 --> 02:14:31,096
And scripture
answers it clearly:

2792
02:14:31,128 --> 02:14:34,765
"without shedding of blood,
there is no forgiveness."

2793
02:14:35,166 --> 02:14:40,439
Forgiveness always requires
some sort of sacrifice.

2794
02:14:40,738 --> 02:14:44,576
Why can't God do what He
asks us to be able to do,

2795
02:14:44,609 --> 02:14:49,814
to freely forgive without
demanding retribution first?

2796
02:14:49,846 --> 02:14:51,748
Jesus doesn't say,
Punch him in the mouth,

2797
02:14:51,782 --> 02:14:53,551
and then you can forgive him.

2798
02:14:53,583 --> 02:14:55,119
Or, Kill their baby, and
then you can forgive him.

2799
02:14:55,153 --> 02:14:57,622
He just goes like,
Just forgive 'em!

2800
02:14:57,654 --> 02:14:59,858
If Jesus says we're supposed
to forgive each other,

2801
02:14:59,890 --> 02:15:03,828
why can't God just
forgive us?

2802
02:15:04,694 --> 02:15:08,332
So often the
parable of the prodigal son

2803
02:15:08,365 --> 02:15:14,204
is used as a rebuttal to
penal substitutionary atonement.

2804
02:15:14,238 --> 02:15:18,143
Again, I go back to the parable
of the prodigal son-

2805
02:15:18,176 --> 02:15:21,346
There was no payment!
The Father is not paid!

2806
02:15:21,378 --> 02:15:24,215
He isn't saying, Okay, I'm-
I'm gonna forgive that kid

2807
02:15:24,247 --> 02:15:26,750
for taking the inheritance and
squandering it and all of that,

2808
02:15:26,783 --> 02:15:29,621
but somebody's gonna...
somebody's gonna pay me back!

2809
02:15:29,654 --> 02:15:31,423
No, there's no payment!

2810
02:15:31,622 --> 02:15:33,758
So the whole concept of
thinking that forgiveness

2811
02:15:33,791 --> 02:15:39,197
can be offered without an
actual sacrifice on God's part

2812
02:15:39,229 --> 02:15:42,666
doesn't even jive with the way
we think about forgiveness

2813
02:15:42,699 --> 02:15:45,836
in human circumstances
in everyday life.

2814
02:15:45,869 --> 02:15:48,338
In Matthew
chapter 5, Jesus says,

2815
02:15:48,372 --> 02:15:51,643
"You have heard that it was
said, 'An eye for an eye,

2816
02:15:51,676 --> 02:15:54,412
and a tooth for a tooth.'
But I say to you,

2817
02:15:54,444 --> 02:15:56,246
do not resist an evil person;

2818
02:15:56,279 --> 02:15:59,483
but whoever slaps you on
your right cheek,

2819
02:15:59,516 --> 02:16:01,786
turn the other to him also."

2820
02:16:01,819 --> 02:16:05,256
So, Jesus is saying that if
someone sins against you

2821
02:16:05,288 --> 02:16:07,891
by slapping you
on the right cheek,

2822
02:16:07,925 --> 02:16:10,595
the justice would mean
"an eye for an eye."

2823
02:16:10,627 --> 02:16:14,865
So, justice would be return
a slap for a slap.

2824
02:16:14,899 --> 02:16:19,204
As all theologians should know,
the very concept of forgiveness

2825
02:16:19,237 --> 02:16:23,207
is based on the ancient
practice of releasing a debt

2826
02:16:23,240 --> 02:16:25,676
rather than collecting
it from someone else.

2827
02:16:25,710 --> 02:16:29,279
But Jesus is
commanding us to forgive those

2828
02:16:29,313 --> 02:16:32,884
who have sinned against us, and
doing this requires us to...

2829
02:16:32,916 --> 02:16:36,853
to turn the other cheek.
And turning the other cheek

2830
02:16:36,887 --> 02:16:41,359
is to absorb the justice
owed to that person.

2831
02:16:41,391 --> 02:16:44,662
so the justice that that person
actually deserves,

2832
02:16:44,694 --> 02:16:47,764
we're absorbing
back upon ourselves.

2833
02:16:47,798 --> 02:16:49,867
And so, in the story of
the prodigal son,

2834
02:16:49,899 --> 02:16:51,868
there is a debt that is owed.

2835
02:16:51,902 --> 02:16:55,540
And remember, the son had asked
for his share of the estate,

2836
02:16:55,573 --> 02:16:58,376
and of course squandered
his whole inheritance-

2837
02:16:58,408 --> 02:17:00,011
he spent everything!

2838
02:17:00,043 --> 02:17:03,847
And so, in order for the father
to forgive his son,

2839
02:17:03,880 --> 02:17:06,950
he had to absorb
the loss of that money himself.

2840
02:17:06,984 --> 02:17:09,319
He's either replacing it,
or he's taking the loss,

2841
02:17:09,352 --> 02:17:13,324
but the point is he's not
making the son pay it back.

2842
02:17:13,523 --> 02:17:15,592
And what God does in the gospel

2843
02:17:15,626 --> 02:17:19,297
is He decides not to pay them
back what they deserve,

2844
02:17:19,329 --> 02:17:23,433
but rather bear the brunt
of that sin on Himself.

2845
02:17:23,467 --> 02:17:25,837
In the gospel, God's justice

2846
02:17:25,870 --> 02:17:29,974
demands the death of the sinner!
We know this from Romans 6:23,

2847
02:17:30,006 --> 02:17:33,343
which says that
"the wages of sin is death."

2848
02:17:33,377 --> 02:17:36,814
But instead of giving us the
death that we deserve,

2849
02:17:36,846 --> 02:17:39,484
God chose to forgive us by

2850
02:17:39,516 --> 02:17:41,653
essentially turning
the other cheek.

2851
02:17:41,685 --> 02:17:44,988
And so, what He was doing was
absorbing that justice,

2852
02:17:45,022 --> 02:17:47,859
which is our death,
into Himself,

2853
02:17:47,891 --> 02:17:50,427
in the person of Jesus Christ.

2854
02:17:50,460 --> 02:17:54,965
So, instead of us dying for our
sins, which is what we deserve,

2855
02:17:54,998 --> 02:17:59,336
Christ dies for our sins.

2856
02:18:00,103 --> 02:18:03,807
We're sinners
redeemed by a gracious God-

2857
02:18:03,841 --> 02:18:05,743
a gracious God who is
- You're a liar!

2858
02:18:05,775 --> 02:18:07,744
- saving souls!
- And the truth is

2859
02:18:07,778 --> 02:18:09,613
- not in you!
- What a graceful God-

2860
02:18:09,647 --> 02:18:11,481
- What a merciful
God!

2861
02:18:11,514 --> 02:18:15,619
What a loving God,
that He would send His Son

2862
02:18:15,653 --> 02:18:17,522
- to die on a cross
- Lie!

2863
02:18:17,555 --> 02:18:19,657
- that we might
have life!

2864
02:18:21,658 --> 02:18:23,627
One of the most
important passages

2865
02:18:23,661 --> 02:18:27,397
in the entire Bible, and one of
my favorite verses in the Bible

2866
02:18:27,431 --> 02:18:31,935
is found in 2 Corinthians 5:21,
where Paul writes,

2867
02:18:31,968 --> 02:18:35,405
He made Him who knew no sin
to be sin on our behalf,

2868
02:18:35,439 --> 02:18:39,644
so that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him.

2869
02:18:39,676 --> 02:18:42,046
First of all I'd like to point
out it says "He," that is God,

2870
02:18:42,078 --> 02:18:44,815
made "Him,"
that is the Son, Jesus,

2871
02:18:44,849 --> 02:18:48,386
"who knew no sin to
be sin on our behalf..." Now,

2872
02:18:48,418 --> 02:18:50,987
Now the first thing that we
need to understand is

2873
02:18:51,021 --> 02:18:56,494
how magnificent Jesus truly is!
He was without sin!

2874
02:18:56,527 --> 02:18:58,529
That is an amazing thing!

2875
02:18:58,561 --> 02:19:00,465
One time I was dealing
with a person,

2876
02:19:00,497 --> 02:19:03,533
I was witnessing to them, and
they were a part of a religion

2877
02:19:03,566 --> 02:19:06,436
that claimed to be Christian,
but he believed that

2878
02:19:06,469 --> 02:19:08,972
he hadn't sinned in 11 years.

2879
02:19:09,005 --> 02:19:10,974
One of the
most popular teachers today that

2880
02:19:11,007 --> 02:19:13,944
preaches that Christians can
attain sinless perfection,

2881
02:19:13,977 --> 02:19:17,981
in this lifetime, is Todd White,
of Lifestyle Christianity.

2882
02:19:18,014 --> 02:19:20,885
You can actually have the Word
so strong inside of your heart

2883
02:19:20,917 --> 02:19:24,087
that you never have to slip!

2884
02:19:24,120 --> 02:19:25,989
People are like, Well, that's
false! That's not true!

2885
02:19:26,022 --> 02:19:27,958
Well you're wrong!
I live with me!

2886
02:19:27,992 --> 02:19:30,927
I have lived for 12 years
without looking lustfully

2887
02:19:30,960 --> 02:19:33,730
at a woman, ever!
In 12 years!

2888
02:19:33,763 --> 02:19:35,132
And people are like, Well,
that's not possible!

2889
02:19:35,165 --> 02:19:37,100
You're wrong! I live with me!

2890
02:19:37,134 --> 02:19:39,603
This is the
heresy of sinless perfectionism

2891
02:19:39,637 --> 02:19:43,007
and it is a part of what's
known as the Pelagian heresy.

2892
02:19:43,040 --> 02:19:45,943
In the epistle of 1 John
chapter 1, it says,

2893
02:19:45,976 --> 02:19:48,112
If we say we have no sin,

2894
02:19:48,145 --> 02:19:51,748
we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.

2895
02:19:51,781 --> 02:19:53,850
And so I asked him, I said,

2896
02:19:53,884 --> 02:19:56,788
What do you suppose
is the greatest sin?

2897
02:19:56,820 --> 02:19:58,956
And he said, Well, I don't
know. And I said, "Well,

2898
02:19:58,988 --> 02:20:01,825
could it be breaking
the greatest command?

2899
02:20:01,859 --> 02:20:04,429
And he said, Well I never
thought about it that way.

2900
02:20:04,461 --> 02:20:06,129
And I said,
What is the greatest command?

2901
02:20:06,163 --> 02:20:08,966
It's to love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart, soul,

2902
02:20:08,998 --> 02:20:10,700
mind and strength.

2903
02:20:10,734 --> 02:20:12,103
The first
commandment is to love God

2904
02:20:12,136 --> 02:20:13,771
with all your heart,
with all your soul,

2905
02:20:13,804 --> 02:20:15,540
with all your strength,
with all your mind.

2906
02:20:15,573 --> 02:20:17,608
If ou wake up in love with
Jesus. If you go to sleep

2907
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:19,576
in love with Jesus-

2908
02:20:19,610 --> 02:20:22,513
If you wake up in the middle of
the night in love with Jesus,

2909
02:20:22,546 --> 02:20:24,215
you will fulfill the
first command!

2910
02:20:24,247 --> 02:20:28,786
Of all the billions of people
who have walked this earth-

2911
02:20:28,818 --> 02:20:31,655
there has never been-
of all that mass-

2912
02:20:31,689 --> 02:20:36,727
not one person, who for
one fraction of a second,

2913
02:20:36,760 --> 02:20:40,630
loved the Lord, their God,
with all their heart, soul,

2914
02:20:40,664 --> 02:20:42,467
mind and strength!

2915
02:20:42,500 --> 02:20:46,102
And yet here we
have Jesus of Nazareth-

2916
02:20:46,136 --> 02:20:50,174
There was never one moment
when He did not love the Lord,

2917
02:20:50,207 --> 02:20:53,543
His God, with all His heart,
soul, mind and strength.

2918
02:20:53,576 --> 02:20:59,483
He is truly the magnificent
individual of history!

2919
02:20:59,516 --> 02:21:02,953
Now this righteous man,
according to the plan of God,

2920
02:21:02,986 --> 02:21:06,223
He bears the sins of His people.

2921
02:21:06,256 --> 02:21:09,726
It says He, that is God,
made Him who knew no sin

2922
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:11,896
to be sin on our behalf.

2923
02:21:11,929 --> 02:21:16,000
What does it mean that He was
made sin on our behalf?

2924
02:21:16,032 --> 02:21:18,935
I believe that this question
is answered

2925
02:21:18,968 --> 02:21:21,071
in the latter part of the text:

2926
02:21:21,104 --> 02:21:24,941
So that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him.

2927
02:21:24,975 --> 02:21:27,979
Now, the moment
a person believes in Jesus,

2928
02:21:28,012 --> 02:21:31,649
they are not transformed into a
perfectly righteous being

2929
02:21:31,682 --> 02:21:33,251
that never sins again.

2930
02:21:33,283 --> 02:21:34,784
He came and gave
me this blank canvas.

2931
02:21:34,817 --> 02:21:36,152
He came and gave me
this pure heart

2932
02:21:36,185 --> 02:21:37,922
and I've never violated
it with anything!

2933
02:21:37,954 --> 02:21:40,691
They're nt infused
with some special grace

2934
02:21:40,724 --> 02:21:42,994
so as to be sinless, and through
their sinlessness,

2935
02:21:43,027 --> 02:21:45,195
earn their salvation.

2936
02:21:45,228 --> 02:21:47,097
It's a legal term.

2937
02:21:47,130 --> 02:21:49,733
The moment a person
believes in Christ,

2938
02:21:49,766 --> 02:21:52,869
God legally, or forensically
declares them to be

2939
02:21:52,903 --> 02:21:54,704
right with Him!

2940
02:21:54,737 --> 02:21:58,775
And He treats them
as right with Him!

2941
02:21:58,808 --> 02:22:02,913
On the cross our sin
was imputed to Christ.

2942
02:22:03,147 --> 02:22:07,218
He did not, on the cross,
become corrupt or defiled

2943
02:22:07,251 --> 02:22:09,319
or twisted or sinful.

2944
02:22:09,352 --> 02:22:12,289
He was always the
spotless Lamb of God!

2945
02:22:12,323 --> 02:22:15,760
but on the cross our sin
was imputed to Him.

2946
02:22:15,792 --> 02:22:20,630
God legally, or forensically
declared His Son to be guilty

2947
02:22:20,664 --> 02:22:24,135
in our place and
treated Him as guilty!

2948
02:22:24,167 --> 02:22:26,904
"All of us,
like sheep, have gone astray,

2949
02:22:26,936 --> 02:22:29,840
each of us has turned
to his own way,

2950
02:22:29,872 --> 02:22:32,709
but the Lord has caused
the iniquity of us all

2951
02:22:32,743 --> 02:22:35,146
to fall on Him."

2952
02:22:35,646 --> 02:22:41,953
If you go back to Isaiah 53,
700 years before Christ...

2953
02:22:42,653 --> 02:22:43,888
But He was pierced through

2954
02:22:43,921 --> 02:22:45,656
for our transgressions,

2955
02:22:45,689 --> 02:22:48,024
He was crushed
for our iniquities;

2956
02:22:48,058 --> 02:22:51,996
The chastening for our
well-being fell upon Him,

2957
02:22:52,029 --> 02:22:54,731
And by His scourging
we are healed."

2958
02:22:54,764 --> 02:22:57,167
All of that is
substitutionary language.

2959
02:22:57,200 --> 02:23:00,203
All of that is
penal substitution.

2960
02:23:00,236 --> 02:23:03,039
What does Paul say when it
comes to, "I deliver to you

2961
02:23:03,073 --> 02:23:04,809
as of first importance..."?

2962
02:23:04,842 --> 02:23:08,813
"that Christ died
for our sins..."

2963
02:23:08,845 --> 02:23:11,215
That's the language
of substitution.

2964
02:23:11,247 --> 02:23:15,218
Peter says,
The just dies for the unjust."

2965
02:23:15,252 --> 02:23:18,122
That's penalty substitution!

2966
02:23:19,923 --> 02:23:22,025
After the death
of Christ, starting with

2967
02:23:22,058 --> 02:23:25,028
the first century and on
through several centuries,

2968
02:23:25,061 --> 02:23:27,397
countless Christians
were crucified!

2969
02:23:27,431 --> 02:23:30,701
Some of them set on fire,
as they hung there on that tree!

2970
02:23:30,734 --> 02:23:34,070
And yet the history of martyrdom
tells us that many of them

2971
02:23:34,103 --> 02:23:38,408
went to the cross,
praising God with joy,

2972
02:23:38,441 --> 02:23:41,311
that they had the opportunity
to die in a similar manner

2973
02:23:41,344 --> 02:23:43,346
to their Lord! Now are you
going to tell me

2974
02:23:43,379 --> 02:23:45,715
that the followers
of Jesus Christ

2975
02:23:45,748 --> 02:23:49,686
bravely and boldly embraced
the cross without complaint,

2976
02:23:49,719 --> 02:23:52,222
while the captain of their
salvation cries out three times,

2977
02:23:52,255 --> 02:23:54,358
Let this cup pass from me?

2978
02:23:54,390 --> 02:23:57,327
What was in the cup?

2979
02:23:57,361 --> 02:23:59,163
Then He said to them,

2980
02:23:59,195 --> 02:24:03,400
'My soul is deeply grieved
to the point of death;

2981
02:24:03,433 --> 02:24:06,269
remain here and
keep watch with Me.'

2982
02:24:06,302 --> 02:24:08,405
And He went a little
beyond them,

2983
02:24:08,439 --> 02:24:12,275
and fell on His face and prayed,
saying, 'My Father,

2984
02:24:12,308 --> 02:24:16,413
if it is possible,
let this cup pass from Me;

2985
02:24:16,447 --> 02:24:20,016
yet not as I will,
but as You will.'"

2986
02:24:20,049 --> 02:24:21,251
And some
people have said, "Well that's

2987
02:24:21,284 --> 02:24:23,020
a moment of weakness!
No!

2988
02:24:23,052 --> 02:24:25,155
Not a moment of weakness!
Let this cup pass from me

2989
02:24:25,189 --> 02:24:27,891
is the only, possible,
appropriate comment

2990
02:24:27,924 --> 02:24:31,127
for someone who's
never known sin!

2991
02:24:31,161 --> 02:24:34,198
This is the eternal
second member of the Trinity.

2992
02:24:34,230 --> 02:24:39,136
This is the eternal,
holy, undefiled Son of God,

2993
02:24:39,168 --> 02:24:42,772
who is looking at the moment

2994
02:24:42,806 --> 02:24:45,242
when He is going to be punished

2995
02:24:45,274 --> 02:24:48,378
for all the sins of all the
people who would ever be saved

2996
02:24:48,412 --> 02:24:50,246
in all of human history!

2997
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:53,417
We don't have a
perfect hatred for sin-He did!

2998
02:24:53,450 --> 02:24:56,721
everything in His being
was repulsed by the thought

2999
02:24:56,754 --> 02:24:58,422
of iniquity!

3000
02:24:58,454 --> 02:25:03,127
That is deity being anticipatory

3001
02:25:03,159 --> 02:25:08,798
of something that the divine
nature never had experienced!

3002
02:25:08,832 --> 02:25:10,434
You see the
difference is this-

3003
02:25:10,467 --> 02:25:14,471
those martyrs, they had upon
them the pleasure of God!

3004
02:25:14,504 --> 02:25:16,272
The delight of God!

3005
02:25:16,306 --> 02:25:18,442
The Holy Spirit giving
them strength,

3006
02:25:18,475 --> 02:25:20,176
granting them assurance,

3007
02:25:20,209 --> 02:25:22,011
even bringing them joy!

3008
02:25:22,045 --> 02:25:25,216
Yet on Calvary it was
completely different!

3009
02:25:25,248 --> 02:25:28,084
You have statements,
in the Prophets

3010
02:25:28,118 --> 02:25:31,789
and in the Psalms,
of the cup of God's wrath.

3011
02:25:32,388 --> 02:25:34,023
For thus the Lord,

3012
02:25:34,057 --> 02:25:36,159
the God of Israel says to me,

3013
02:25:36,192 --> 02:25:39,763
'Take this cup of the wine
of wrath from my hand

3014
02:25:39,797 --> 02:25:43,501
and cause all the nations to
whom I send you to drink it.'"

3015
02:25:45,067 --> 02:25:49,405
Jesus was
volunteering to drink the cup

3016
02:25:49,439 --> 02:25:53,511
of God's wrath, the cup that
we deserve to drink!

3017
02:25:53,543 --> 02:25:56,447
And God plunges
the world into darkness,

3018
02:25:56,479 --> 02:25:59,949
while Christ is being crucified,

3019
02:25:59,983 --> 02:26:04,454
indicating the turning off
of the light of His countenance.

3020
02:26:04,487 --> 02:26:06,456
About the
ninth hour Jesus cried out,

3021
02:26:06,489 --> 02:26:08,324
with a loud voice, saying,

3022
02:26:08,358 --> 02:26:12,996
My God, my God,
why have You forsaken Me?

3023
02:26:13,030 --> 02:26:15,266
It was if there
was a cry from heaven-

3024
02:26:15,299 --> 02:26:20,938
excuse my language, but I can be
no more accurate than to say,

3025
02:26:20,970 --> 02:26:24,007
it was as if Jesus
heard the words,

3026
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:27,911
God damn you!

3027
02:26:28,545 --> 02:26:31,549
because that's what
it meant to be cursed!

3028
02:26:31,582 --> 02:26:34,551
Christ redeemed
us from the curse of the law

3029
02:26:34,584 --> 02:26:36,820
having become a curse for us.

3030
02:26:36,853 --> 02:26:41,391
for it is written, cursed is
everyone who hangs on a tree.

3031
02:26:41,424 --> 02:26:44,127
The Father has
withdrawn His favorable presence,

3032
02:26:44,161 --> 02:26:47,198
and now the Father is pouring
out His active wrath,

3033
02:26:47,230 --> 02:26:49,065
upon his Son!

3034
02:26:49,099 --> 02:26:51,135
But the Lord
was pleased to crush Him,

3035
02:26:51,167 --> 02:26:54,070
putting Him to grief."

3036
02:26:54,438 --> 02:26:57,975
You know, Isaiah 53:10
is so important!

3037
02:26:58,007 --> 02:27:00,076
It pleased the Lord
to crush Him.

3038
02:27:00,110 --> 02:27:03,047
That doesn't mean that God
got some delight

3039
02:27:03,079 --> 02:27:04,949
out of seeing His Son suffer,

3040
02:27:04,981 --> 02:27:07,917
but it meant that the will
of God was accomplished

3041
02:27:07,950 --> 02:27:09,919
in the redemption
of God's people,

3042
02:27:09,952 --> 02:27:14,424
through the suffering of
His Son, under the wrath of God.

3043
02:27:14,458 --> 02:27:19,029
All forgiveness does
is take away the negative.

3044
02:27:19,061 --> 02:27:22,199
There has to be the
acquisition of the positive.

3045
02:27:22,231 --> 02:27:26,537
We need a positive righteousness

3046
02:27:26,569 --> 02:27:30,040
if we are to be accepted
by God, the Father.

3047
02:27:30,373 --> 02:27:36,212
It is by the death of Christ
that our sins are washed away.

3048
02:27:36,245 --> 02:27:40,183
It is by the life of Christ,
that we receive

3049
02:27:40,217 --> 02:27:44,989
the perfect righteousness
that He has secured for us!

3050
02:27:45,022 --> 02:27:48,125
I mean, you cannot read
the gospels and think that!

3051
02:27:48,391 --> 02:27:50,159
If you read just the gospels,

3052
02:27:50,192 --> 02:27:51,961
you would not come
out of it thinking,

3053
02:27:51,995 --> 02:27:54,465
Oh, Christ's life was to
fulfill the righteousness,

3054
02:27:54,497 --> 02:27:56,132
so that God could kill Him,

3055
02:27:56,165 --> 02:27:58,301
and we could have
a perfect sacrifice.

3056
02:27:58,334 --> 02:28:01,371
He came
"to fulfill all righteousness."

3057
02:28:01,405 --> 02:28:03,474
(Matthew 3:15)

3058
02:28:03,506 --> 02:28:08,978
And Christ by His
obedience to the law

3059
02:28:09,012 --> 02:28:12,082
is able to give to us

3060
02:28:12,114 --> 02:28:15,619
the righteousness
that we so desperately need!

3061
02:28:15,652 --> 02:28:17,954
Remember Job chapter 9?

3062
02:28:17,987 --> 02:28:20,356
Job says,
I need an intercessor,

3063
02:28:20,389 --> 02:28:23,493
Someone to stand between
God and me-

3064
02:28:23,527 --> 02:28:26,664
He could put his hand on God
and put his hand on me.

3065
02:28:26,697 --> 02:28:29,399
Who could do that?
And we know it's Jesus Christ,

3066
02:28:29,433 --> 02:28:31,268
the God-man-

3067
02:28:31,300 --> 02:28:34,237
He's fully God
so He can be our intercessor,

3068
02:28:34,271 --> 02:28:38,042
and He's fully man,
so He can be our representative.

3069
02:28:38,441 --> 02:28:40,543
Just as hell
is a separation from the

3070
02:28:40,576 --> 02:28:43,479
favorable presence
and blessing of God.

3071
02:28:43,513 --> 02:28:46,216
Jesus, our substitute,

3072
02:28:46,248 --> 02:28:51,021
had to be forsaken by God,
separated from his divine favor,

3073
02:28:51,054 --> 02:28:53,389
becoming a curse for us.

3074
02:28:53,423 --> 02:28:56,593
I did kind of have a problem
with the fact that

3075
02:28:56,626 --> 02:29:00,264
there was this incongruency-
if we're Trinitarian,

3076
02:29:00,297 --> 02:29:03,300
and there is this,
kind of, problem

3077
02:29:03,333 --> 02:29:06,737
where Jesus, who is the
second member of the Trinity,

3078
02:29:06,770 --> 02:29:11,042
needs to be cut off
from divine communion...

3079
02:29:11,240 --> 02:29:14,677
You think that somehow we were
able to get inside that space

3080
02:29:14,710 --> 02:29:17,447
and rip the
Trinity to shreds?!

3081
02:29:17,480 --> 02:29:19,449
...because He
took on our sin, and God is holy

3082
02:29:19,483 --> 02:29:21,485
and God can't bear sin,
so if Jesus beared sin,

3083
02:29:21,518 --> 02:29:23,486
He must've been cut off!

3084
02:29:24,186 --> 02:29:26,090
That's a... that's a problem!

3085
02:29:26,289 --> 02:29:29,059
Well I think that one of the
things that we couldn't say

3086
02:29:29,092 --> 02:29:31,495
is that somehow or another
it was a sham!

3087
02:29:31,762 --> 02:29:35,299
That Christ was not experiencing

3088
02:29:35,332 --> 02:29:38,335
the wrath of the Father
upon Himself.

3089
02:29:38,368 --> 02:29:40,738
We have to have a
proper view of the incarnation:

3090
02:29:40,771 --> 02:29:44,308
The Son of God in
His humanity is... is dying.

3091
02:29:44,341 --> 02:29:46,143
The divine nature
is not dying.

3092
02:29:46,175 --> 02:29:48,712
The Son is dying
in that human nature.

3093
02:29:49,111 --> 02:29:51,014
Yet at the same time
we have to say that it's

3094
02:29:51,048 --> 02:29:53,484
the Son of God,
who is doing all of this.

3095
02:29:53,516 --> 02:29:57,154
The Son of God who is in
inseparable relation

3096
02:29:57,186 --> 02:29:58,689
with the Father and Spirit.

3097
02:29:59,088 --> 02:30:00,790
It would be wrong for us

3098
02:30:00,824 --> 02:30:05,462
to diminish the reality of that
dereliction in any way.

3099
02:30:05,495 --> 02:30:11,135
Still, the unity of the Blessed
Trinity was not actually broken!

3100
02:30:11,735 --> 02:30:15,539
It takes me into a realm
that is almost unfathomable!

3101
02:30:15,572 --> 02:30:17,341
And then right
before He died, He cried out,

3102
02:30:17,373 --> 02:30:20,043
It is finished!"
Which means, "paid in full."

3103
02:30:20,076 --> 02:30:24,113
The wrath of God
was poured forth until justice-

3104
02:30:24,147 --> 02:30:28,085
divine justice-
was completely satisfied.

3105
02:30:28,118 --> 02:30:30,586
"He said, 'It is finished!'

3106
02:30:30,620 --> 02:30:34,492
and He bowed his head
and give up His spirit."

3107
02:30:37,861 --> 02:30:40,264
You say, Well, how in the world

3108
02:30:40,297 --> 02:30:44,268
could He bear, in three hours,
all the punishment

3109
02:30:44,300 --> 02:30:47,637
from God for all the sins
of all who would ever believe,

3110
02:30:47,671 --> 02:30:50,474
when all those people-
if they didn't believe-

3111
02:30:50,506 --> 02:30:53,076
couldn't bear the weight of
their own punishment

3112
02:30:53,110 --> 02:30:55,311
throughout all eternity?"

3113
02:30:55,344 --> 02:31:00,216
You see...
it is the value of God!

3114
02:31:00,484 --> 02:31:03,387
Yes, Jesus of Nazareth
was a man,

3115
02:31:03,420 --> 02:31:07,123
but Jesus of Nazareth was God-
God in the flesh!

3116
02:31:07,156 --> 02:31:11,761
and with that came the
infinite value of His person!

3117
02:31:12,361 --> 02:31:14,664
and that's how He could die
in our place

3118
02:31:14,698 --> 02:31:17,468
and save us
from a multitude of sins.

3119
02:31:17,501 --> 02:31:21,805
If we say that the crucifixion
is what God is doing to Jesus,

3120
02:31:21,837 --> 02:31:24,240
we do violence to the Trinity!

3121
02:31:24,540 --> 02:31:28,411
So did God kill Jesus
or did man kill Jesus?

3122
02:31:28,444 --> 02:31:30,713
And the answer is "both!"

3123
02:31:30,746 --> 02:31:33,349
In Peter's sermon,
in Acts chapter 2,

3124
02:31:33,382 --> 02:31:36,452
Peter says that This man,
referring to Christ Jesus,

3125
02:31:36,486 --> 02:31:39,856
was delivered over by the
predetermined plan

3126
02:31:39,889 --> 02:31:41,858
and foreknowledge of God;

3127
02:31:41,891 --> 02:31:45,662
and yet you nailed
Him to the cross

3128
02:31:45,694 --> 02:31:49,600
by the hands of godless men
and put Him to death.

3129
02:31:49,632 --> 02:31:53,469
And so we see right there
that <i>both</i> God killed Christ,

3130
02:31:53,503 --> 02:31:55,405
<i>and</i> man killed Christ.

3131
02:31:55,438 --> 02:31:59,442
And here we see the tension
between the sovereignty of God,

3132
02:31:59,476 --> 02:32:03,212
and the responsibility
and accountability of man.

3133
02:32:03,245 --> 02:32:07,450
And our finite minds
can't fully grasp that,

3134
02:32:07,484 --> 02:32:09,753
but this is true,
and we believe it to be true

3135
02:32:09,786 --> 02:32:13,290
because God's Word
said that it is.

3136
02:32:13,590 --> 02:32:16,826
And I'm telling you
that sets up a system...

3137
02:32:18,395 --> 02:32:22,566
It makes God the author
of a terribly <i>unjust</i> system!

3138
02:32:22,799 --> 02:32:26,303
God set it all up,
created it this way,

3139
02:32:26,335 --> 02:32:28,871
knowing He would
have to kill His Son,

3140
02:32:28,905 --> 02:32:31,475
as the only way
to pay for this.

3141
02:32:31,708 --> 02:32:35,379
Now you can do like
"theological gymnastics"

3142
02:32:35,412 --> 02:32:38,682
and try to say, Well, God's
really loving and merciful..."

3143
02:32:38,715 --> 02:32:41,585
or whatever. But that's not
at the heart of that theory-

3144
02:32:41,618 --> 02:32:43,686
at the heart of that theory
is justice!

3145
02:32:43,719 --> 02:32:47,523
not love, not mercy,
not grace... justice!

3146
02:32:47,557 --> 02:32:49,826
Why can't it be <i>both?</i>

3147
02:32:49,859 --> 02:32:53,564
The storyline of the Bible
brings all of us to our knees!

3148
02:32:53,897 --> 02:32:57,468
An incomprehensible sovereign,
and mighty king,

3149
02:32:57,800 --> 02:33:02,338
Who can be "both/and"
unto His own glory.

3150
02:33:02,371 --> 02:33:05,274
If they really dug down deep

3151
02:33:05,308 --> 02:33:10,480
and saw the version of God
that is at the root

3152
02:33:10,513 --> 02:33:12,416
of the "payment model"
of the atonement,

3153
02:33:12,449 --> 02:33:15,252
they would say,
That's not the God I worship.

3154
02:33:15,284 --> 02:33:17,387
That's not the
God of the Bible.

3155
02:33:19,956 --> 02:33:21,924
If you reject the doctrine

3156
02:33:21,958 --> 02:33:26,963
of penal substitution,
can you still be a Christian?

3157
02:33:26,996 --> 02:33:30,766
Um, I would say this-
if you don't fully understand

3158
02:33:30,799 --> 02:33:33,936
the doctrine of penal
substitution, but you at least

3159
02:33:33,969 --> 02:33:35,871
understand that Christ died,

3160
02:33:35,905 --> 02:33:38,308
and paid the penalty for your
sins, and you accept Him

3161
02:33:38,341 --> 02:33:39,943
as your Savior-
you can be a Christian.

3162
02:33:39,976 --> 02:33:42,613
You might not be able
to articulate the full doctrine.

3163
02:33:42,646 --> 02:33:45,349
But to deny that doctrine,

3164
02:33:45,381 --> 02:33:50,420
to say that Christ did not die
in your place, for your sins,

3165
02:33:50,452 --> 02:33:53,990
is to flatly deny the
atonement itself.

3166
02:33:54,023 --> 02:33:57,260
And it is to deny the validation
of the Father,

3167
02:33:57,293 --> 02:33:58,594
who raised Him from the dead.

3168
02:33:58,628 --> 02:34:00,364
"He was raised for
our justification"

3169
02:34:00,397 --> 02:34:03,734
because the penalty satisfied
the justice of God.

3170
02:34:03,766 --> 02:34:05,502
See, the resurrection

3171
02:34:05,534 --> 02:34:08,971
was the affirmation that Jesus
was who He said He was,

3172
02:34:09,004 --> 02:34:11,375
and that what He did, worked!

3173
02:34:11,740 --> 02:34:14,011
The devil has no claim on Him!

3174
02:34:14,043 --> 02:34:16,012
Sin has no claim on Him!

3175
02:34:16,046 --> 02:34:18,014
Death has no claim on Him!

3176
02:34:18,048 --> 02:34:19,882
Therefore, the good news
for the Christian,

3177
02:34:19,915 --> 02:34:22,752
is that when we belong
to Christ, all of those things

3178
02:34:22,786 --> 02:34:25,255
can be said of us as well!

3179
02:34:25,789 --> 02:34:28,759
Then in the end
I stopped believing that Jesus

3180
02:34:28,791 --> 02:34:30,693
physically rose from the dead.
You know, you end up,

3181
02:34:30,727 --> 02:34:32,963
sort of believing,
"It's a metaphor!" You know?

3182
02:34:32,995 --> 02:34:35,064
Like- and all the way through
this as I would talk to people

3183
02:34:35,097 --> 02:34:36,700
they would go like, You are
trying to mess with my faith!

3184
02:34:36,733 --> 02:34:37,933
And I was like,
No, no!

3185
02:34:37,967 --> 02:34:39,870
I'm just trying to
hold onto mine!

3186
02:34:39,903 --> 02:34:41,672
Just trying to
stay in the game!"

3187
02:34:41,870 --> 02:34:44,607
There is no metaphor here!
Christianity wouldn't exist

3188
02:34:44,640 --> 02:34:46,475
had it been a metaphor.

3189
02:34:46,509 --> 02:34:48,545
If the resurrection of Jesus

3190
02:34:48,577 --> 02:34:51,948
wasn't a real event,
in real history,

3191
02:34:51,980 --> 02:34:55,551
then Christianity is false,
and the questions mean nothing!

3192
02:34:55,584 --> 02:34:58,321
Paul said,
If Christ has not been raised,

3193
02:34:58,354 --> 02:35:01,457
then your faith is in vain and
you're still in your sins.

3194
02:35:01,490 --> 02:35:04,895
You can't deny Christ,
and you can't deny His work,

3195
02:35:04,927 --> 02:35:06,930
and be saved!

3196
02:35:06,962 --> 02:35:09,865
There came a
point, five or six years ago,

3197
02:35:09,898 --> 02:35:13,469
where I had a bike crash,
and I almost died!

3198
02:35:13,503 --> 02:35:15,672
and I had a head injury,
and for a month

3199
02:35:15,704 --> 02:35:18,475
I couldn't think straight.
And when I came out of that-

3200
02:35:18,507 --> 02:35:21,477
when... when I recovered
my senses,

3201
02:35:21,511 --> 02:35:23,780
I realized like,
I'm going to die!

3202
02:35:23,813 --> 02:35:26,415
I almost died,
and I'm going to die!

3203
02:35:26,449 --> 02:35:30,453
and when I die this brain of
mine will break down,

3204
02:35:30,486 --> 02:35:33,089
and my personality
is right here, in my brain.

3205
02:35:33,122 --> 02:35:35,424
I know that because like if you
smash my brain against a tree

3206
02:35:35,458 --> 02:35:38,495
at 40 miles an hour-
I change!

3207
02:35:38,528 --> 02:35:40,797
I remember saying to my wife,
I think this life

3208
02:35:40,829 --> 02:35:42,798
is all we get!

3209
02:35:42,832 --> 02:35:45,568
And she said,
Yeah, I think so too.

3210
02:35:45,602 --> 02:35:47,471
And she said, I think you
better stop being

3211
02:35:47,504 --> 02:35:48,872
a professional Christian,

3212
02:35:48,905 --> 02:35:50,974
'cause you don't believe
any of it anymore!"

3213
02:35:51,006 --> 02:35:53,976
So I'm a secular humanist,

3214
02:35:54,010 --> 02:35:56,646
because I don't believe
in supernaturalism,

3215
02:35:56,679 --> 02:36:00,049
but I'm really committed
to these values

3216
02:36:00,083 --> 02:36:03,587
of love and justice

3217
02:36:03,620 --> 02:36:06,856
and wonder and gratitude.

3218
02:36:07,724 --> 02:36:12,728
♪ Oh that
old rugged cross ♪

3219
02:36:12,762 --> 02:36:18,402
♪ so despised
by the world ♪

3220
02:36:18,434 --> 02:36:25,509
♪ has a wondrous
attraction for me. ♪

3221
02:36:27,610 --> 02:36:29,679
There's a myth
in our culture that

3222
02:36:29,711 --> 02:36:31,680
Christianity in the West
is dying.

3223
02:36:31,713 --> 02:36:34,084
But if you look closely
at the denominations that are

3224
02:36:34,117 --> 02:36:36,987
hemorrhaging members,
it's all the same denominations

3225
02:36:37,020 --> 02:36:39,756
who have stopped teaching
fundamental Christian truths,

3226
02:36:39,789 --> 02:36:41,625
like the inerrancy of Scripture,

3227
02:36:41,657 --> 02:36:44,427
like the exclusivity of Jesus
in salvation,

3228
02:36:44,460 --> 02:36:45,995
and the reality of hell.

3229
02:36:46,029 --> 02:36:48,665
They've given up on teaching
these Christian truths,

3230
02:36:48,698 --> 02:36:50,900
and in the process
they have been emptied

3231
02:36:50,933 --> 02:36:53,170
of the power that is the gospel!

3232
02:36:53,202 --> 02:36:58,742
♪ Stained
with blood so divine. ♪

3233
02:36:58,774 --> 02:37:05,983
♪ A wondrous
beauty I see. ♪

3234
02:37:06,515 --> 02:37:08,083
I tried the gospel!

3235
02:37:08,117 --> 02:37:10,853
I loved the idea
of a loving Jesus

3236
02:37:10,887 --> 02:37:14,524
and I kept changing-
I kept ignoring Bible verses,

3237
02:37:14,557 --> 02:37:16,059
and underlining
different Bible verses,

3238
02:37:16,092 --> 02:37:18,128
and I kept like,
bending things around

3239
02:37:18,161 --> 02:37:21,730
so that I could end up
with a god...

3240
02:37:21,763 --> 02:37:24,800
who I could truly love!

3241
02:37:24,834 --> 02:37:27,003
The problem is-

3242
02:37:27,036 --> 02:37:30,540
is that once you're done
making all those adjustments,

3243
02:37:30,573 --> 02:37:32,876
I realized that the god
I believed in

3244
02:37:32,908 --> 02:37:35,545
was a god of my
own invention!

3245
02:37:35,577 --> 02:37:38,547
Believe me, the last god
I believed in was awesome!

3246
02:37:38,581 --> 02:37:41,852
I loved that guy!
He was just like me!

3247
02:37:42,784 --> 02:37:44,587
So what we are seeing is not

3248
02:37:44,620 --> 02:37:46,856
the failing of Christianity
in the West.

3249
02:37:46,889 --> 02:37:49,158
What we are seeing is,
nominal Christians,

3250
02:37:49,191 --> 02:37:50,993
who were never
Christian to begin with,

3251
02:37:51,027 --> 02:37:53,797
are shedding that skin,
they're setting aside that garb,

3252
02:37:53,829 --> 02:37:56,132
and they're being honest
about who they really are!

3253
02:37:56,699 --> 02:37:59,703
If my whole life
and my whole identity,

3254
02:37:59,736 --> 02:38:01,738
and all my relationships

3255
02:38:01,771 --> 02:38:06,743
depend upon me believing in
Jesus in a certain way,

3256
02:38:08,144 --> 02:38:11,948
I'd be crazy to entertain
any other idea!

3257
02:38:11,980 --> 02:38:19,088
♪ And
exchange it one day ♪

3258
02:38:19,121 --> 02:38:24,260
The wonder isn't that I
stayed a Christian for 30 years-

3259
02:38:24,293 --> 02:38:27,030
it's that I got out at all!

3260
02:38:29,765 --> 02:38:32,269
The only
difference between me

3261
02:38:32,301 --> 02:38:35,638
and the Atheist,
is the grace of God!

3262
02:38:36,306 --> 02:38:39,109
And so I was
driving in my car, one day,

3263
02:38:39,141 --> 02:38:42,145
and was listening to the radio,
just kind of scanning,

3264
02:38:42,177 --> 02:38:44,613
and I heard this man's voice,

3265
02:38:44,647 --> 02:38:46,283
actually answering a lot
of the claims that

3266
02:38:46,316 --> 02:38:48,752
this pastor had
brought up in class.

3267
02:38:48,784 --> 02:38:51,820
He was just very calm
and intelligent in how

3268
02:38:51,853 --> 02:38:53,923
he was answering these claims.

3269
02:38:53,957 --> 02:38:57,627
And it turns out that it was a
Christian apologetics event,

3270
02:38:57,659 --> 02:39:01,164
and the man answering the
questions was Ravi Zacharias.

3271
02:39:01,197 --> 02:39:05,167
And so I discovered this whole
wide world of apologetics.

3272
02:39:05,200 --> 02:39:09,171
So I began to follow him, and
got hooked up with a seminary

3273
02:39:09,204 --> 02:39:12,208
and began to take classes in
seminary. I began to study

3274
02:39:12,240 --> 02:39:14,176
and study, and study!

3275
02:39:14,209 --> 02:39:18,681
And I'm so thankful to God
that what was reconstructed

3276
02:39:18,715 --> 02:39:20,649
through the help
of the Holy Spirit,

3277
02:39:20,683 --> 02:39:22,852
was historic Christianity.

3278
02:39:22,885 --> 02:39:24,688
That looks a little
bit different

3279
02:39:24,720 --> 02:39:26,922
than what I was raised with.
There've been some things

3280
02:39:26,956 --> 02:39:29,658
I've corrected along the way.
There've been

3281
02:39:29,691 --> 02:39:31,594
some doctrines I've rethought,

3282
02:39:31,628 --> 02:39:35,765
but the core, the gospel,
stands!

3283
02:39:35,798 --> 02:39:38,635
And the historic claims that
Christianity has made for

3284
02:39:38,667 --> 02:39:40,770
2,000 years, stands!

3285
02:39:40,802 --> 02:39:43,606
The Bible is reliable!

3286
02:39:43,639 --> 02:39:47,076
And I've come to affirm in an
even stronger way, than before,

3287
02:39:47,110 --> 02:39:48,944
that it is authoritative
for my life,

3288
02:39:48,977 --> 02:39:53,349
that it is-as Jesus said
it was-the Word of God.

3289
02:39:53,382 --> 02:39:58,054
Liberal Christianity
shares a foundation

3290
02:39:58,086 --> 02:40:00,222
with Atheism, with unbelief.

3291
02:40:00,255 --> 02:40:03,058
I think Atheism is actually
the most healthy

3292
02:40:03,092 --> 02:40:05,929
spiritual response
to that view of God!

3293
02:40:05,961 --> 02:40:07,730
That's why you
can have an Atheist like

3294
02:40:07,763 --> 02:40:10,699
Richard Dawkins,
who shares the same

3295
02:40:10,733 --> 02:40:13,168
moral indignation and disgust

3296
02:40:13,201 --> 02:40:16,171
over a doctrine like
penal substitutionary atonement

3297
02:40:16,204 --> 02:40:18,140
as the liberal theologian.

3298
02:40:18,174 --> 02:40:20,310
Why didn't He
just forgive them?

3299
02:40:20,343 --> 02:40:23,780
Why was it necessary to have
a human sacrifice?

3300
02:40:23,813 --> 02:40:27,049
To have His Son
tortured and executed,

3301
02:40:27,083 --> 02:40:30,887
in order that the sins of
mankind should be absolved!

3302
02:40:30,920 --> 02:40:35,325
Is that not the most disgusting
idea you ever heard?

3303
02:40:37,159 --> 02:40:39,663
And the
question is, "Do I know people

3304
02:40:39,695 --> 02:40:43,666
whose belief in the supernatural
has died the same way mine did,

3305
02:40:43,700 --> 02:40:45,869
who are still preaching
in pulpits,

3306
02:40:45,902 --> 02:40:47,671
and who are still
working as missionaries?"

3307
02:40:47,703 --> 02:40:50,272
I do! I know lots of them!
They write to me secretly!

3308
02:40:50,306 --> 02:40:52,676
And they say the same thing to
me-they say, "Listen,

3309
02:40:52,709 --> 02:40:55,945
at this stage in the game
what else am I gonna do?

3310
02:40:55,977 --> 02:40:57,746
Who else... Where am I gonna go?

3311
02:40:57,780 --> 02:41:00,384
What is there for me
outside of this?

3312
02:41:01,183 --> 02:41:04,387
These are
essentials to the gospel!

3313
02:41:04,787 --> 02:41:09,024
This is what Christianity is!
and if we deny those things,

3314
02:41:09,058 --> 02:41:11,828
it might be something else,
but it's not Christianity!

3315
02:41:11,861 --> 02:41:15,065
Probably the biggest
single heresy of fundamentalism

3316
02:41:15,397 --> 02:41:18,701
is that it turned around
the biblical notion of faith,

3317
02:41:18,735 --> 02:41:20,837
180 degrees!

3318
02:41:20,870 --> 02:41:24,040
Faith clearly means,
the very word means,

3319
02:41:24,073 --> 02:41:27,143
"walking in darkness,"
not certitude!

3320
02:41:27,175 --> 02:41:28,944
He's actually saying maybe that

3321
02:41:28,977 --> 02:41:31,046
faith is blind, which,
of course, Christians

3322
02:41:31,079 --> 02:41:35,351
don't understand faith to be
a blind leap in the dark!

3323
02:41:35,384 --> 02:41:39,022
And we also don't understand it
to be 100% certitude,

3324
02:41:39,055 --> 02:41:42,125
which is what Richard Rohr
is pitting faith against.

3325
02:41:42,157 --> 02:41:44,226
He's basically saying
the opposite of faith

3326
02:41:44,260 --> 02:41:48,465
is complete and 100%
absolute certainty.

3327
02:41:48,497 --> 02:41:52,001
Neither one of those are
biblical definitions of faith.

3328
02:41:52,033 --> 02:41:56,206
Faith, biblically, is "trust."
and often throughout scripture

3329
02:41:56,238 --> 02:41:59,908
we see that trust being
based on good evidence

3330
02:41:59,941 --> 02:42:02,411
to believe that something is
true. This is why we refer to

3331
02:42:02,444 --> 02:42:05,949
the Christian faith,
as being a reasonable faith.

3332
02:42:06,248 --> 02:42:09,753
And so for me...
I-I sometimes look at Tony and

3333
02:42:09,786 --> 02:42:13,355
Rob Bell, and all my, kind of,
progressive Christian friends,

3334
02:42:13,388 --> 02:42:15,391
and I think to myself...

3335
02:42:15,858 --> 02:42:19,328
There are so many people
trying to reform the church,

3336
02:42:19,961 --> 02:42:23,132
and there are so few people
trying to create

3337
02:42:23,165 --> 02:42:26,068
loving communities for people

3338
02:42:26,102 --> 02:42:28,105
who don't believe in
any of the stuff-

3339
02:42:28,336 --> 02:42:30,906
I wish some of you would just
give up the language

3340
02:42:30,940 --> 02:42:33,376
and come over and help me!

3341
02:42:33,575 --> 02:42:35,878
I'd rather them be honest
about their unbelief

3342
02:42:35,912 --> 02:42:38,782
then staying within the church
and corrupting it from within!

3343
02:42:38,815 --> 02:42:42,352
It's actually a purifying
effect on the church,

3344
02:42:42,385 --> 02:42:43,952
and it's a good thing!

3345
02:42:43,986 --> 02:42:45,522
When I do evangelism...

3346
02:42:45,555 --> 02:42:47,824
You say, "Evangelism?" I think
evangelism, like,

3347
02:42:47,856 --> 02:42:50,025
technically means
"sharing the good news."

3348
02:42:50,058 --> 02:42:53,328
It's just that my good news is
that you can pursue goodness

3349
02:42:53,361 --> 02:42:55,197
for its own sake!

3350
02:42:55,463 --> 02:42:58,801
I mean, it's funny like,
Jesus at one point said,

3351
02:42:58,834 --> 02:43:01,136
You know, if you really want
to understand the Gospel...

3352
02:43:01,170 --> 02:43:03,105
Love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,

3353
02:43:03,138 --> 02:43:05,240
and all your soul, and all your
strength, and all your mind.

3354
02:43:05,273 --> 02:43:07,010
And then He said, And the
second commandment, is like

3355
02:43:07,042 --> 02:43:10,046
unto it: love your neighbor as
you love yourself."

3356
02:43:10,379 --> 02:43:12,816
"Love God, love people."

3357
02:43:12,849 --> 02:43:16,853
and the great irony is, that
this is actually a summary

3358
02:43:16,886 --> 02:43:18,388
of the law!

3359
02:43:18,421 --> 02:43:20,557
And so on
some level Jesus was saying,

3360
02:43:20,590 --> 02:43:23,092
like, "Look! You want to know
the ultimate expression

3361
02:43:23,125 --> 02:43:26,061
of Christianity?
Love people!

3362
02:43:26,094 --> 02:43:29,364
And I go like, I don't think
He was far off!

3363
02:43:29,397 --> 02:43:32,234
And so, you know,
people say like, Wow,

3364
02:43:32,268 --> 02:43:34,304
you haven't really
changed that much,

3365
02:43:34,336 --> 02:43:36,305
since you left
Christianity behind.

3366
02:43:36,338 --> 02:43:38,842
And I go, like,
No, I haven't!

3367
02:43:39,040 --> 02:43:41,176
Essentially,
what you're saying is,

3368
02:43:41,209 --> 02:43:45,080
"Our goal is to
actually keep the law!"

3369
02:43:45,281 --> 02:43:49,118
and that's something that the
gospel is here to remind us

3370
02:43:49,150 --> 02:43:51,020
that we cannot do!

3371
02:43:51,052 --> 02:43:53,989
And that's not good news!
That's why the gospel

3372
02:43:54,022 --> 02:43:58,093
is good news to those who
recognize that they're sinners,

3373
02:43:58,127 --> 02:43:59,896
to those who recognize
that they...

3374
02:43:59,929 --> 02:44:02,332
there is a flaw
deep in humanity,

3375
02:44:02,364 --> 02:44:06,335
that isn't going to be fixed
by doing all the good works

3376
02:44:06,369 --> 02:44:08,471
that you can think of
in the world.

3377
02:44:09,171 --> 02:44:11,541
Both in the prosperity gospel

3378
02:44:11,574 --> 02:44:14,444
and in the emergent movement,

3379
02:44:14,477 --> 02:44:19,215
the message still is about
you and what you do,

3380
02:44:19,247 --> 02:44:23,653
either to "achieve a better you,"
or to "achieve a better world."

3381
02:44:23,685 --> 02:44:28,091
It's all about "law."
It's all about what you can do.

3382
02:44:28,123 --> 02:44:31,527
instead of about God
and what He has accomplished

3383
02:44:31,559 --> 02:44:34,496
in history for us and
for our salvation.

3384
02:44:34,530 --> 02:44:38,001
No, the good news
is that He saves me

3385
02:44:38,033 --> 02:44:40,936
from trying to make myself a
better me, when I can't,

3386
02:44:40,969 --> 02:44:45,641
and He saves me from the guilt
and bondage of a world

3387
02:44:45,674 --> 02:44:48,977
that is full of oppression
and injustice!

3388
02:44:49,011 --> 02:44:51,447
"In your humanist worldview,
how does...

3389
02:44:51,479 --> 02:44:54,283
How do all the sins of the world
get reconciled and fixed?

3390
02:44:54,316 --> 02:44:56,618
They don't!

3391
02:44:56,652 --> 02:44:59,454
They don't! That's why you
have to try to stop

3392
02:44:59,487 --> 02:45:01,390
people from hurting people!
That's why you have to work

3393
02:45:01,424 --> 02:45:03,493
to make a better world!
Because there's some

3394
02:45:03,525 --> 02:45:05,494
brokenness you can't fix!

3395
02:45:05,528 --> 02:45:07,462
There are some wounds
you can't heal!

3396
02:45:07,495 --> 02:45:09,665
There are some losses
you can't make right,

3397
02:45:09,699 --> 02:45:11,268
you can't make whole!

3398
02:45:11,533 --> 02:45:13,269
In response to that gospel

3399
02:45:13,301 --> 02:45:16,405
I do want to love
and serve my neighbor!

3400
02:45:16,439 --> 02:45:18,975
But it's not because
that's the gospel!

3401
02:45:19,007 --> 02:45:21,209
Yes, we should do good works-
that should be a fruit

3402
02:45:21,243 --> 02:45:22,679
of our salvation,

3403
02:45:22,711 --> 02:45:26,515
but that isn't what saves us!
It can't save us!

3404
02:45:28,718 --> 02:45:33,088
God is jealous
for His own glory,

3405
02:45:33,121 --> 02:45:35,424
and He will not share it
with anybody else!

3406
02:45:35,657 --> 02:45:39,594
Contemporary
worship so often begins with

3407
02:45:39,628 --> 02:45:43,400
with man and his need,
rather than God and His glory-

3408
02:45:43,599 --> 02:45:45,701
that we've essentially
placed ourselves

3409
02:45:45,735 --> 02:45:47,569
at the center of the universe!

3410
02:45:47,602 --> 02:45:51,506
See, the cross, to me,
isn't the revelation of my sin.

3411
02:45:51,540 --> 02:45:54,310
The cross is actually
the revealing of my value!

3412
02:45:54,343 --> 02:45:56,379
We put man in the middle of it.

3413
02:45:56,412 --> 02:46:00,148
Man is this great prize,
and this great reason.

3414
02:46:00,182 --> 02:46:02,685
Something underneath of that
sin must've been of great value

3415
02:46:02,718 --> 02:46:05,054
for heaven to go bankrupt
to get me back!

3416
02:46:05,086 --> 02:46:07,522
As though
the world just existed,

3417
02:46:07,556 --> 02:46:10,460
God happened upon us,
and He saw man and was just

3418
02:46:10,493 --> 02:46:12,295
so taken with us,

3419
02:46:12,327 --> 02:46:14,197
that He decided to do
something about it!

3420
02:46:14,229 --> 02:46:16,698
If the blood of Jesus
determines your worth,

3421
02:46:16,731 --> 02:46:18,601
and heaven went bankrupt
to get you back,

3422
02:46:18,634 --> 02:46:21,069
that makes you pretty worth it!

3423
02:46:21,102 --> 02:46:23,705
People say the cross is a sign
of how much man is worth-

3424
02:46:23,738 --> 02:46:25,608
That's not true!
The cross is a sign of

3425
02:46:25,640 --> 02:46:28,411
how depraved we really are,
that it took the death

3426
02:46:28,443 --> 02:46:30,180
of God's own Son!

3427
02:46:31,180 --> 02:46:33,082
So,
there's a song called "Worth"-

3428
02:46:33,114 --> 02:46:36,218
It was written by the associate
pastor of my former church,

3429
02:46:36,252 --> 02:46:37,552
and part of the lyrics go:

3430
02:46:37,585 --> 02:46:39,554
You thought I was
worth saving.

3431
02:46:39,587 --> 02:46:43,726
♪ You thought I was
worth saving! ♪

3432
02:46:43,759 --> 02:46:45,528
"You thought I was
to die for."

3433
02:46:45,560 --> 02:46:50,132
♪ "You thought I was
to die for!" ♪

3434
02:46:50,165 --> 02:46:53,068
When you really think about
the lyrics of that song,

3435
02:46:53,102 --> 02:46:56,406
it's suggesting that we
were owed something by God.

3436
02:46:56,439 --> 02:46:59,575
When we flip this, and when
it becomes man-centered,

3437
02:46:59,608 --> 02:47:03,246
and when there becomes this
inherent worth in me that

3438
02:47:03,279 --> 02:47:06,515
drew out this work of Christ...

3439
02:47:06,549 --> 02:47:08,651
Heaven went
bankrupt to get you back,

3440
02:47:08,683 --> 02:47:10,786
because God thought that you
were worth the price

3441
02:47:10,819 --> 02:47:12,754
that He paid to redeem you!

3442
02:47:12,788 --> 02:47:14,090
All of a sudden,

3443
02:47:14,122 --> 02:47:16,259
the idea of grace is gone-

3444
02:47:16,291 --> 02:47:18,528
because it is merited!

3445
02:47:18,560 --> 02:47:22,097
I did Jesus a favor by
being so wonderful!

3446
02:47:22,130 --> 02:47:26,135
instead of Christ, and
His finished work,

3447
02:47:26,167 --> 02:47:29,504
being an act of
God's grace to me.

3448
02:47:29,538 --> 02:47:31,606
Now, this is very,
very important.

3449
02:47:31,639 --> 02:47:37,212
God's motive for saving people
is not found in that people!

3450
02:47:37,245 --> 02:47:40,082
So, why did God love
and save Israel?

3451
02:47:40,115 --> 02:47:43,786
Well, in Deuteronomy Chapter 7,
verses 7-8, it explicitly says:

3452
02:47:43,818 --> 02:47:47,090
"The Lord did not set His love
on you, Israel, or choose you

3453
02:47:47,122 --> 02:47:50,259
because you were more in number
than any of the other peoples,

3454
02:47:50,291 --> 02:47:52,360
for you were the
fewest of all peoples,

3455
02:47:52,394 --> 02:47:55,431
but because the Lord loved you
and kept the oath

3456
02:47:55,463 --> 02:47:57,432
which He swore
to your forefathers."

3457
02:47:57,466 --> 02:48:00,336
In other words, God saving
Israel was not because of

3458
02:48:00,369 --> 02:48:03,206
anything great within Israel,
but because of His love,

3459
02:48:03,238 --> 02:48:06,609
because of His faithfulness,
because He keeps His word!

3460
02:48:07,476 --> 02:48:11,314
So, the term "glorify"
often means "to magnify"

3461
02:48:11,346 --> 02:48:13,583
in a positive way-

3462
02:48:13,615 --> 02:48:15,584
to really zoom in with a
magnifying glass

3463
02:48:15,618 --> 02:48:17,153
on what that thing is,

3464
02:48:17,185 --> 02:48:19,454
and expose it for
how beautiful it is.

3465
02:48:19,487 --> 02:48:22,424
Glorifying God is
recognizing who He is

3466
02:48:22,458 --> 02:48:25,128
as He's been revealed
in the scriptures.

3467
02:48:25,161 --> 02:48:28,597
So, the more we get to
understand who God is,

3468
02:48:28,630 --> 02:48:30,298
we get blown away!

3469
02:48:30,332 --> 02:48:34,336
And when we come to
the message of the gospel,

3470
02:48:34,370 --> 02:48:36,338
especially in Ephesians,

3471
02:48:36,371 --> 02:48:39,407
the motivation of God
in redemption,

3472
02:48:39,441 --> 02:48:42,745
is that we might be
"to the praise of His glory."

3473
02:48:42,778 --> 02:48:47,850
So it's actually... it's the
opposite of the song that

3474
02:48:47,882 --> 02:48:49,784
that has that line:

3475
02:48:49,817 --> 02:48:52,254
Like a rose trampled
on the ground..."

3476
02:48:52,288 --> 02:48:54,756
♪ Like a rose ♪

3477
02:48:54,790 --> 02:48:56,926
♪ trampled on
the ground ♪

3478
02:48:56,959 --> 02:48:58,561
And it says, and He...

3479
02:48:58,593 --> 02:49:01,463
He "thought of me above all."

3480
02:49:01,496 --> 02:49:06,769
♪ And thought of me
above all ♪

3481
02:49:06,801 --> 02:49:09,371
Which, of course, makes perfect
sense to a person.

3482
02:49:09,405 --> 02:49:11,807
They say, Well, of course,
everybody would think about me.

3483
02:49:11,840 --> 02:49:13,576
But in actual fact, no!

3484
02:49:13,609 --> 02:49:17,914
His focus was on Himself!
His focus was on His glory!

3485
02:49:17,947 --> 02:49:20,615
Yes, He loves humanity!

3486
02:49:20,648 --> 02:49:22,652
But that's not the
primary motivation.

3487
02:49:22,684 --> 02:49:25,854
The primary motivation is
His love for Himself,

3488
02:49:25,888 --> 02:49:28,391
and a desire to
show off Himself.

3489
02:49:28,424 --> 02:49:31,594
And He wants us to see, not
just the power and creativity

3490
02:49:31,627 --> 02:49:34,664
we can see in nature.
He wants us to see His grace,

3491
02:49:34,697 --> 02:49:38,501
and His mercy, and He even
wants us to see His wrath!

3492
02:49:38,533 --> 02:49:42,404
"For the sake
of My name I delay My wrath,

3493
02:49:42,438 --> 02:49:45,407
and for My praise I restrain it
for you,

3494
02:49:45,441 --> 02:49:47,677
in order not to cut you off."

3495
02:49:47,709 --> 02:49:50,245
And you might think, "Well,
that's kind of egotistical.

3496
02:49:50,279 --> 02:49:52,548
God is all about Himself?
Like, that's

3497
02:49:52,581 --> 02:49:54,649
really annoying, you know?"

3498
02:49:54,683 --> 02:49:56,719
But who else could God be about?

3499
02:49:56,951 --> 02:49:59,221
For God to not be
God-centered

3500
02:49:59,254 --> 02:50:01,289
would be actually to say
something untrue about

3501
02:50:01,323 --> 02:50:04,292
the universe,
because God truly is

3502
02:50:04,325 --> 02:50:07,529
at the center of the universe.
He's the creator of all things.

3503
02:50:07,563 --> 02:50:10,233
We all are in the
orbit around Him.

3504
02:50:10,265 --> 02:50:12,868
But there is a beauty
in the fact that God

3505
02:50:12,900 --> 02:50:15,671
can be focused on Himself
and His own glory,

3506
02:50:15,703 --> 02:50:18,240
because God is a Trinity!

3507
02:50:18,273 --> 02:50:21,644
And so, there is a paradoxical
others-centeredness

3508
02:50:21,676 --> 02:50:24,680
even there in the
God-centeredness of God.

3509
02:50:24,712 --> 02:50:27,882
And the Father, in an
expression of love to the Son,

3510
02:50:27,915 --> 02:50:31,286
determined that He
would create a world,

3511
02:50:31,319 --> 02:50:33,556
that He would allow
that world to fall into sin,

3512
02:50:33,588 --> 02:50:36,524
hat He would recover from
that world a redeemed humanity,

3513
02:50:36,558 --> 02:50:38,594
that they would give that
redeemed humanity as a

3514
02:50:38,627 --> 02:50:41,264
bride to His Son,
so that that redeemed humanity

3515
02:50:41,297 --> 02:50:45,434
forever and ever, and ever,
could glorify His Son!

3516
02:50:45,467 --> 02:50:49,939
You are, in some sense,
an incidental part of a great

3517
02:50:49,971 --> 02:50:53,675
act of love
that is within the Trinity!

3518
02:50:53,709 --> 02:50:56,879
Everything is to
the glory of God!

3519
02:50:56,912 --> 02:50:58,648
God is righteous!

3520
02:50:58,681 --> 02:51:02,685
He is the highest good,
the most beautiful thing,

3521
02:51:02,718 --> 02:51:04,787
the only perfect being!

3522
02:51:04,819 --> 02:51:06,621
And therefore, He is the
only thing in the universe

3523
02:51:06,655 --> 02:51:10,293
that actually deserves
praise and honor and glory.

3524
02:51:10,325 --> 02:51:11,960
God would be unrighteous

3525
02:51:11,994 --> 02:51:15,730
if He let us glorify anything
else other than Him!

3526
02:51:15,763 --> 02:51:17,966
Something underneath of sin

3527
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:20,369
was so important for heaven
to pay such a high price

3528
02:51:20,402 --> 02:51:22,004
to redeem your life!

3529
02:51:22,037 --> 02:51:23,906
You see,
if God saved me because of

3530
02:51:23,939 --> 02:51:27,676
my value, then my focus is on
myself and how amazing I am!

3531
02:51:27,709 --> 02:51:29,844
Because God thought
so highly of you,

3532
02:51:29,878 --> 02:51:32,448
that He sent His Son and thought
that you were worth it...

3533
02:51:32,480 --> 02:51:34,750
In other
words, I'm worshipping myself!

3534
02:51:34,782 --> 02:51:37,352
But if God saved me
because of His love-

3535
02:51:37,386 --> 02:51:39,755
who He is, not who I am-

3536
02:51:39,788 --> 02:51:44,860
then God's glory, His value,
His worth, is magnified!

3537
02:51:44,893 --> 02:51:47,063
Heaven thought that much of you

3538
02:51:47,095 --> 02:51:49,397
that God sent His
only Son for you!

3539
02:51:49,431 --> 02:51:51,967
If God started pointing at us,

3540
02:51:52,000 --> 02:51:55,870
we'd be missing out on the
greatest gift, which is Himself!

3541
02:51:55,904 --> 02:51:58,541
And so, for God
to glorify Himself

3542
02:51:58,574 --> 02:52:00,943
and point the
world to Himself-

3543
02:52:00,976 --> 02:52:03,612
He's actually doing the
most loving thing possible,

3544
02:52:03,645 --> 02:52:06,549
because there is nothing else
more satisfying than God,

3545
02:52:06,582 --> 02:52:07,916
there is nothing
more lovely than God!

3546
02:52:07,950 --> 02:52:10,619
there is nothing
more loving than God!

3547
02:52:10,652 --> 02:52:13,422
The love of God is greatly

3548
02:52:13,454 --> 02:52:16,592
and exponentially amplified

3549
02:52:16,625 --> 02:52:20,462
when God loves those
who are unlovely!

3550
02:52:20,495 --> 02:52:22,097
Jesus didn't come into the
world 'cause you were such a

3551
02:52:22,130 --> 02:52:23,998
grotesque sinner!

3552
02:52:24,031 --> 02:52:25,667
Now, the
teaching of William Paul Young

3553
02:52:25,700 --> 02:52:27,802
and Todd White-they're
similar in that they

3554
02:52:27,835 --> 02:52:31,406
both are denying the
doctrine of original sin.

3555
02:52:31,440 --> 02:52:34,076
I think
the lie is... that all we are

3556
02:52:34,109 --> 02:52:37,380
is a "piece of crap." And it's
just because God is merciful...

3557
02:52:37,413 --> 02:52:39,081
- Well that's a
lie some religions tell people

3558
02:52:39,113 --> 02:52:40,983
that you are
"born of sin, you are sin..."

3559
02:52:41,015 --> 02:52:43,485
- "You're
depraved. You're worthless."

3560
02:52:43,519 --> 02:52:45,521
Now, scripture is clear on ths:

3561
02:52:45,554 --> 02:52:48,858
"None is righteous, no not one.
No one understands,

3562
02:52:48,890 --> 02:52:52,861
no one seeks for God.
And all have turned aside,

3563
02:52:52,895 --> 02:52:57,032
together they have
become worthless."

3564
02:52:57,065 --> 02:52:59,033
See, we've said that
we're "worthless," and we're

3565
02:52:59,066 --> 02:53:01,569
and we're "worms in the dirt,"
not realizing that

3566
02:53:01,602 --> 02:53:03,138
that's what Satan is!

3567
02:53:03,172 --> 02:53:06,007
Christ and His work

3568
02:53:06,040 --> 02:53:10,578
doesn't find its value because
of who I am as the one

3569
02:53:10,611 --> 02:53:12,113
whom He redeemed!

3570
02:53:12,147 --> 02:53:15,618
We're saying that my worth
is not in what I own!

3571
02:53:15,650 --> 02:53:18,686
My worth is not
in my achievements!

3572
02:53:18,719 --> 02:53:23,057
But I, instead, find my value

3573
02:53:23,091 --> 02:53:26,961
in the fact that the one
of ultimate worth

3574
02:53:26,995 --> 02:53:30,933
died to redeem me,
in spite of the fact

3575
02:53:30,966 --> 02:53:34,836
that I was inherently
not worthy of that!

3576
02:53:34,870 --> 02:53:37,540
The therapeutic gospel says:

3577
02:53:37,573 --> 02:53:40,743
"God loves me
because I'm valuable."

3578
02:53:40,775 --> 02:53:42,811
The biblical gospel says:

3579
02:53:42,844 --> 02:53:45,947
"I am valuable
because God loves me."

3580
02:53:45,980 --> 02:53:49,784
Anyone can love someone who's-
who's lovely!

3581
02:53:49,817 --> 02:53:52,587
there's nothing supernatural
about that, or nothing even

3582
02:53:52,620 --> 02:53:54,122
divine about that!

3583
02:53:54,590 --> 02:53:56,992
You see, we love things
that are attractive to us,

3584
02:53:57,024 --> 02:54:00,094
the things that are the most
beautiful, the most expensive!

3585
02:54:00,128 --> 02:54:02,031
But see, God is
different than us!

3586
02:54:02,064 --> 02:54:05,468
God loves sinners who are the
opposite of attractive to Him!

3587
02:54:05,501 --> 02:54:08,938
In fact, He dies
for His enemies!

3588
02:54:08,970 --> 02:54:11,506
That is
amazing love,

3589
02:54:11,540 --> 02:54:14,176
unparalleled love,
matchless love,

3590
02:54:14,209 --> 02:54:17,012
that can only come from God!

3591
02:54:17,045 --> 02:54:19,815
What was God doing at Calvary?

3592
02:54:19,847 --> 02:54:22,016
There was a
simultaneous display

3593
02:54:22,049 --> 02:54:23,918
of all of God's attributes!

3594
02:54:23,951 --> 02:54:26,488
Not just His love
and forgiveness,

3595
02:54:26,522 --> 02:54:31,660
but by no means letting
the guilty party go!

3596
02:54:31,692 --> 02:54:34,496
Love and wrath on display,

3597
02:54:34,530 --> 02:54:36,799
goodness and kindness
on display,

3598
02:54:36,832 --> 02:54:40,168
justice and mercy on display,

3599
02:54:40,201 --> 02:54:43,206
simultaneously!

3600
02:54:45,282 --> 02:54:50,282
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